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Kokosh cake, what's the secret?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 9:27 am
What's the secret to bakery kokosh cake with the very thin, almost raw-like barely cooked layers of dough?

No matter how many times I've made kokosh cake, it always comes out like a babka. The dough is very breadlike. Doubling the filling doesn't change that.

All kokosh cake recipes I've seen, the dough is similar, basically a standard yeast dough.

I'm thinking it must be something about the technique. I've tried rolling it thin and under-baking it but then it's just inedible raw dough.

Anyone know?
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voiceofreason




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 11:39 am
Following
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 11:43 am
It’s rolling the dough technique.
After you spread the filling, you fold the dough over, and roll again and spread again.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 11:56 am
amother Coral wrote:
It’s rolling the dough technique.
After you spread the filling, you fold the dough over, and roll again and spread again.


Interesting, I want to make sure I'm understanding.

I roll out the dough thin, like a large rectangle. Spread the filling on top. Roll it up. (Normally at this point, I slice the dough the long way and twist the two halves together. Is this step skipped?)

Are you saying that after rolling it up once, you then roll the whole thing out again with the rolling pin? Wouldn't all of the filling get squeezed out of the sides and just make a big mess?

Do you start with spreading less than all the filling in the first place, so that you can then add more? How long do you bake or how do you know when it's fully baked?
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smss




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 12:02 pm
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cf.....nNjFj
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amother
Violet


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 12:22 pm
They probably use a machine to get it that thin.
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amother
Glitter


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 12:36 pm
amother OP wrote:
Interesting, I want to make sure I'm understanding.

I roll out the dough thin, like a large rectangle. Spread the filling on top. Roll it up. (Normally at this point, I slice the dough the long way and twist the two halves together. Is this step skipped?)

Are you saying that after rolling it up once, you then roll the whole thing out again with the rolling pin? Wouldn't all of the filling get squeezed out of the sides and just make a big mess?

Do you start with spreading less than all the filling in the first place, so that you can then add more? How long do you bake or how do you know when it's fully baked?

No twisting for kokosh cake. Twisting allows the dough to grow more like a babka.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 12:46 pm
I'm reading with deep interest. The method is a mystery for me as well
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:10 pm
amother Coral wrote:
It’s rolling the dough technique.
After you spread the filling, you fold the dough over, and roll again and spread again.


Interesting technique.

I used to do it by rolling it out very thin and long, like a megilla (rectangular), putting the filling and then rolling the strudel very tight.

My filling is just oil (spread oil on the whole dough) and then a mix of cacao powder and sugar and a bit of cinnamon (spread thin on the oil, so that it becomes liquid with the oil).

If you leave space, the dough will expand, but if you roll very tight, it will stay flat and thin.

However, if you roll very tight, you need more turns to get to the same diameter, hence the megilla shape of the rolled-out dough. (you roll it up in the axis of the short side, the short side is the length of the babke).

carefull that there are no holes in the dough, especially on the outside, so that the filling will not leak.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:15 pm
Roll the dough as thin as possible. Spread the filling. Then fold the dough in 1/2 or 3, roll thin again & spread filling again. Then roll it up & bake.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:26 pm
amother Tiffanyblue wrote:
Interesting technique.

I used to do it by rolling it out very thin and long, like a megilla (rectangular), putting the filling and then rolling the strudel very tight.

My filling is just oil (spread oil on the whole dough) and then a mix of cacao powder and sugar and a bit of cinnamon (spread thin on the oil, so that it becomes liquid with the oil).

If you leave space, the dough will expand, but if you roll very tight, it will stay flat and thin.

However, if you roll very tight, you need more turns to get to the same diameter, hence the megilla shape of the rolled-out dough. (you roll it up in the axis of the short side, the short side is the length of the babke).

carefull that there are no holes in the dough, especially on the outside, so that the filling will not leak.


This is an interesting point, that it's about rolling it so tight that there's no room to grow. I will try this next time.
I would love to try rolling it out after spreading the filling and rolling it but I can't visualize how it's supposed to work.

Thanks for all the replies.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:27 pm
smss wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cfjk9RDrk03/?igsh=aDRsNmZhdWtnNjFj


Thank you. I'm not on Instagram so I'm not sure if there's a video, but what I found interesting in her directions is that she says to rise the dough. I had thought that for the dough to stay thin, you don't want it to rise?
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ray family




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:32 pm
Look at how to laminate dough. ( the technique used in making croissants)
I’m not sure how you then roll it up, but that’s the technique for getting paper thin layers.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:41 pm
amother Linen wrote:
Roll the dough as thin as possible. Spread the filling. Then fold the dough in 1/2 or 3, roll thin again & spread filling again. Then roll it up & bake.


The filling doesn't all squeeze out the sides when you roll it the second time?

I assume you spread half the filling then?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 1:42 pm
ray family wrote:
Look at how to laminate dough. ( the technique used in making croissants)
I’m not sure how you then roll it up, but that’s the technique for getting paper thin layers.


Thanks, I'll check it out.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 7:20 pm
amother OP wrote:
Interesting, I want to make sure I'm understanding.

I roll out the dough thin, like a large rectangle. Spread the filling on top. Roll it up. (Normally at this point, I slice the dough the long way and twist the two halves together. Is this step skipped?)

Are you saying that after rolling it up once, you then roll the whole thing out again with the rolling pin? Wouldn't all of the filling get squeezed out of the sides and just make a big mess?

Do you start with spreading less than all the filling in the first place, so that you can then add more? How long do you bake or how do you know when it's fully baked?


The rolling I’m referring to after the the filling is rolling OUT with a rolling pin. After you spread filling second time, that’s when you ROLL UP.

Never tried but heard this technique from an experienced baker.

Seems like same as that Instagram pic.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 7:36 pm
amother Coral wrote:
The rolling I’m referring to after the the filling is rolling OUT with a rolling pin. After you spread filling second time, that’s when you ROLL UP.

Never tried but heard this technique from an experienced baker.

Seems like same as that Instagram pic.


Ok. So roll it thin, spread filling (half the filling?), fold.

Roll again with rolling pin. Spread filling again.

Then roll up.

Got it!
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amother
Lemonlime


 

Post Sun, Feb 11 2024, 9:20 pm
You LIKE that thin, soggy, half-baked-kind of dough? I find it nauseating, which is why I don't buy commercial kokosh cake.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Feb 12 2024, 8:16 am
amother Lemonlime wrote:
You LIKE that thin, soggy, half-baked-kind of dough? I find it nauseating, which is why I don't buy commercial kokosh cake.


Why yes I do as a matter of fact, hence this thread!

If I knew you I would give you a nice, thick slice of the airy, cakey, babka-like kokosh cake I just made this past shabbos Smile
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 18 2024, 8:52 am
Update. I tried the folding method as above, and even (gently) rolled out the dough with the rolling pin some more once folded, then added more filling and rolled it up.
It made no difference at all.
Which really when you think about it, why should folding in a different shape change anything? Rolling it out after being filled sounded like it was worth a try, but now that it didn't seem to have worked, I'm wondering why would that would have a different effect than rolling the dough very thin the first time?
I can try as amother above said and make sure it's rolled very very tight so that there is no room for it to rise while it bakes but I do think I've tried to roll it tight usually.

My hypothesis right now is that it's all about the baking time. I did bake it much longer than the Instagram post above said, well over an hour, because every time I checked it, it was literally raw dough.

So I'm guessing there is some sweet spot with the baking time (heh, no pun intended) between fully unbaked so as to be inedible, and a cakey babka. Problem is, if you take it out too early, let it cool, cut it, and find it's really still raw, it's kind of too late to put it back in the oven.
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