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Tamiri
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 Mon, Aug 25 2008, 7:49 am
| Raisin wrote: | | I think the Jewish community needs to reorginise its pririties. A "tax" which gets divided up among all schools in the city would be a great start. maybe one added on to shul membership. There are so many tzedakas that people give money to, all worthy, but surely chinuch should come first. judging by the way people live, there is no lack of cash, but the way it is being spent is all skewered. I think there is a link here between kids at risk as well. When kids see how the schools treat parents, kids aren't allowed to come to school because their parents haven't paid - what sort of effect do you think this has on ALL the kids in the school. |
And how would you going about dividing up the money evenly? Do you want your tax dollars to fund a Reform talmud torah? A Conservative day school? You can't collect money from everyone (that includes non frum Jews) and then say: we're not funding that. And without the non-frum dollars, it's a lost cause. Who gets what money? Based on what? It's not so simple, Raisin. These ideas have been raised and nixed before. You can't base anything on shul membership, because people from the same shuls send their kids all over. And what about the parents who are sending their children to Public School (government run) for whatever reason - their taxes are already paying the bill, why should they pay more? I don't know that there is all that much cash lying around in the Observant communities. People are struggling now more than ever before. However, I have yet to see a school where a child is denied a Jewish education just because they can't pay. Maybe it's out there; I haven't heard of it yet. If people cut back on their living expenses and lived like they did in the old way, maybe some more money could be squeezed out. That would mean smaller homes, less cars, less conveniences. It may come to that.
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amother
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 8:47 am
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Curious what the average amount people are being asked to pay for Lubavitch out of town mesivtas and girls high schools and how do people afford it, credit cards, relatives, or do some people send hoping for a miraculous sponser in the middle of the year, knowing they can't afford it and praying the school won't send their kid home in the middle of the year???
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octopus
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 8:51 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | The parents on our school board are among the wealthiest in the school, but all parents are welcome at almost all of the meetings. |
When only one person owns a school, there are no meetings.
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amother
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:07 am
| Quote: | another thing to think about is that teachers do not pay tuition for their children.
So in our school ALL the teachers are parents of students, with large families, and they do not pay. So they need to up the tuition of the other students to make up the difference.
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That is definitely not true in the litvish schools in Brooklyn. Teacher's can deduct from their salary to pay tuition bypassing taxes. They can even have their school pay tuition in another bypassing taxes. They still have the same tuition obligations.
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Raisin
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:09 am
| Tamiri wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | | I think the Jewish community needs to reorginise its pririties. A "tax" which gets divided up among all schools in the city would be a great start. maybe one added on to shul membership. There are so many tzedakas that people give money to, all worthy, but surely chinuch should come first. judging by the way people live, there is no lack of cash, but the way it is being spent is all skewered. I think there is a link here between kids at risk as well. When kids see how the schools treat parents, kids aren't allowed to come to school because their parents haven't paid - what sort of effect do you think this has on ALL the kids in the school. |
And how would you going about dividing up the money evenly? Do you want your tax dollars to fund a Reform talmud torah? A Conservative day school? You can't collect money from everyone (that includes non frum Jews) and then say: we're not funding that. And without the non-frum dollars, it's a lost cause. Who gets what money? Based on what? It's not so simple, Raisin. These ideas have been raised and nixed before. You can't base anything on shul membership, because people from the same shuls send their kids all over. And what about the parents who are sending their children to Public School (government run) for whatever reason - their taxes are already paying the bill, why should they pay more? I don't know that there is all that much cash lying around in the Observant communities. People are struggling now more than ever before. However, I have yet to see a school where a child is denied a Jewish education just because they can't pay. Maybe it's out there; I haven't heard of it yet. If people cut back on their living expenses and lived like they did in the old way, maybe some more money could be squeezed out. That would mean smaller homes, less cars, less conveniences. It may come to that. |
I mean obviously, orthodox shuls. and the money should be alloted to all local orthodox schools based on size. I think there are plenty of orthodox Jews who have spare cash - look at weddings, pesach hotels etc Maybe their kids are grown up and they don't pay tuition any more, no mortgage and they are doing better income wise then previously. These people should be targeted.
Not very many religious people send kids to public school, except maybe special needs. Also, this should be money that people are anyway giving to tzedaka.
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Clarissa
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:11 am
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It would be impossible. Even people who claim to have no money spend a fortune on Pesach hotels or simchas. Let's be realistic -- this will never happy. People want to choose where and how they spend their money. People who aren't totally in love with their local schools won't want to give a set amount of money to them, outside of tuition. There are a million reasons a community can't designate how people give. I wouldn't join a shul where donating to certain schools was part of the dues -- how do they know where my children go, and what it's costing me?
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Raisin
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:16 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | It would be impossible. Even people who claim to have no money spend a fortune on Pesach hotels or simchas. Let's be realistic -- this will never happy. People want to choose where and how they spend their money. People who aren't totally in love with their local schools won't want to give a set amount of money to them, outside of tuition. There are a million reasons a community can't designate how people give. I wouldn't join a shul where donating to certain schools was part of the dues -- how do they know where my children go, and what it's costing me? |
Would you be happier giving the money if you knew it was going to a scholarship fund to which any parent (including you, should you need) could apply?
also, schools would be a lot more acountable this way.
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Clarissa
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:18 am
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There are people from Reform shuls who send their children to Orthodox day schools. There are people from Orthodox shuls whose kids go to pluralistic day schools. Kids from Conservative shuls whose kids go to Reform day schools. And so on. How would this work?
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Raisin
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:27 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | There are people from Reform shuls who send their children to Orthodox day schools. There are people from Orthodox shuls whose kids go to pluralistic day schools. Kids from Conservative shuls whose kids go to Reform day schools. And so on. How would this work? |
Orthodox shuls, orthodox day schools. any Jewish kids.
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chavamom
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:29 am
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I'm not sure why 'kehila' system wouldn't work. At least where I work, there is a Va'ad Ha'ir that is the organizing body for the Orthodox institutions in town other than schools - kashrus, mikvah, etc. I think the biggest problem is if something was seen as an "alternative" Federation it would spell big, big problems politically.
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Clarissa
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:34 am
| Raisin wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | There are people from Reform shuls who send their children to Orthodox day schools. There are people from Orthodox shuls whose kids go to pluralistic day schools. Kids from Conservative shuls whose kids go to Reform day schools. And so on. How would this work? |
Orthodox shuls, orthodox day schools. any Jewish kids. | I don't understand. If the money goes to Orthodox day schools, what about the people who don't fit into this formula, like the examples I gave?
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Tamiri
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:48 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | There are people from Reform shuls who send their children to Orthodox day schools. There are people from Orthodox shuls whose kids go to pluralistic day schools. Kids from Conservative shuls whose kids go to Reform day schools. And so on. How would this work? |
Orthodox shuls, orthodox day schools. any Jewish kids. | I don't understand. If the money goes to Orthodox day schools, what about the people who don't fit into this formula, like the examples I gave? |
And what about all those who are PAST paying for their children to go to Hebrew Day School? You think they want to keep giving to the school via the shul? What if they want to send it to their kids living in yenemsvelt, to pay their grandchildren's tuition.
Too many what-if.
And no, I don't want to pay into a fund for scholarships. I want to be assessed based on what the kids are really getting, not what others can't pay.
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Clarissa
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:57 am
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The end-result of such a policy is that people wouldn't join shuls.
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Tamiri
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:59 am
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Nah, these are Jews: they'd form break-away minyans.
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amother
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 10:32 am
To answer the original post, we pay 12K for 2 kids (in different schools) one is full day, one is half, both are under 4.
RIDICULOUS.
Especially since the little one's school is part of a large shul that charges full tuition from its members but lets rabbi's wives send their kids for free... I have to say I feel like I'm beeing taken advantage of.
On the other hand, the shul auctions off certain honors (I forget what they're called... going up to the ark on Yom Kippur, reading Chatan Bereshis, etc) and the money goes to tuitions in their own school and also in a neighboring MO school.
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octopus
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 10:37 am
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you would think that with such tremendous tuitions, the schools would pay a decent salary to the teachers, but that's a topic for another thread.
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chavamom
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 3:12 pm
| Tamiri wrote: |
And what about all those who are PAST paying for their children to go to Hebrew Day School? You think they want to keep giving to the school via the shul? What if they want to send it to their kids living in yenemsvelt, to pay their grandchildren's tuition.
Too many what-if.
And no, I don't want to pay into a fund for scholarships. I want to be assessed based on what the kids are really getting, not what others can't pay. |
And if people said the same thing about taxes ("What! I should be exempt! I don't have kids!") we would have no public schools either. Until this is a COMMUNITY issue, we are going to have a tuition problem.
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chavamom
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 3:13 pm
| happy2BaMommy wrote: | | you would think that with such tremendous tuitions, the schools would pay a decent salary to the teachers, but that's a topic for another thread. |
I think there is another thread about where all this $ goes.
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Fox
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 7:41 pm
| chavamom wrote: | | I'm not sure why 'kehila' system wouldn't work. At least where I work, there is a Va'ad Ha'ir that is the organizing body for the Orthodox institutions in town other than schools - kashrus, mikvah, etc. I think the biggest problem is if something was seen as an "alternative" Federation it would spell big, big problems politically. |
In fact, the "Kehilla Fund" in Chicago has been tremendously successful! They operate on a very simple model: donors pledge a monthly amount to the Fund, and it is divided among all the day schools affiliated with the local orthodox educational organization (Associated Talmud Torahs) on a per capita basis.
Of course, many of the usual big donors are involved, but I've been amazed to see how many non-frum, not-very-frum, and no-kids-in-school donors have responded. We recently had a guest for Shabbos, a single man, who spoke glowingly of the Kehilla Fund. He said that he felt an obligation to help support the schools, but he had no idea which schools really needed the money, which schools were hashkafically aligned with him, etc. He liked the fact that by giving to the Kehilla Fund, he is helping all the local schools.
Let me stress that the Kehilla Fund is not a panacea for all the ails the financial framework of Jewish education. There is still too little money to adequately support education. However, it demonstrates that schools can work together to improve a situation, and my friends who work in the local schools tell me that the money distributed by the Kehilla Fund is often the difference between making payroll or not.
| Tamiri wrote: | | And how would you going about dividing up the money evenly? Do you want your tax dollars to fund a Reform talmud torah? A Conservative day school? You can't collect money from everyone (that includes non frum Jews) and then say: we're not funding that. And without the non-frum dollars, it's a lost cause. Who gets what money? Based on what? It's not so simple, Raisin. These ideas have been raised and nixed before. |
Actually, I'd far, far prefer that Federations use money to support all day schools rather than many of the projects they currently fund. We know from the Temple University study a decade or so ago that kids who attend any kind of Jewish day school through 10th grade have an intermarriage rate of approximately 2 percent.
So, of course, I might find the philosophies taught in some schools to be anathma, but I'd far rather every Jewish child be in a Jewish day school -- even one with which I disagree -- than see the money spent as it is now.
I'm unaware of any Federation or other large Jewish philanthropic body that has made day school funding a priority. In fact, historically, the ideas were often nixed not because of the logistics of determining how to distribute funds, but because many of the leaders were and are philosophically opposed to day schools.
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Raisin
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Mon, Aug 25 2008, 7:51 pm
| Fox wrote: | | chavamom wrote: | | I'm not sure why 'kehila' system wouldn't work. At least where I work, there is a Va'ad Ha'ir that is the organizing body for the Orthodox institutions in town other than schools - kashrus, mikvah, etc. I think the biggest problem is if something was seen as an "alternative" Federation it would spell big, big problems politically. |
In fact, the "Kehilla Fund" in Chicago has been tremendously successful! They operate on a very simple model: donors pledge a monthly amount to the Fund, and it is divided among all the day schools affiliated with the local orthodox educational organization (Associated Talmud Torahs) on a per capita basis.
Of course, many of the usual big donors are involved, but I've been amazed to see how many non-frum, not-very-frum, and no-kids-in-school donors have responded. We recently had a guest for Shabbos, a single man, who spoke glowingly of the Kehilla Fund. He said that he felt an obligation to help support the schools, but he had no idea which schools really needed the money, which schools were hashkafically aligned with him, etc. He liked the fact that by giving to the Kehilla Fund, he is helping all the local schools.
Let me stress that the Kehilla Fund is not a panacea for all the ails the financial framework of Jewish education. There is still too little money to adequately support education. However, it demonstrates that schools can work together to improve a situation, and my friends who work in the local schools tell me that the money distributed by the Kehilla Fund is often the difference between making payroll or not.
| Tamiri wrote: | | And how would you going about dividing up the money evenly? Do you want your tax dollars to fund a Reform talmud torah? A Conservative day school? You can't collect money from everyone (that includes non frum Jews) and then say: we're not funding that. And without the non-frum dollars, it's a lost cause. Who gets what money? Based on what? It's not so simple, Raisin. These ideas have been raised and nixed before. |
Actually, I'd far, far prefer that Federations use money to support all day schools rather than many of the projects they currently fund. We know from the Temple University study a decade or so ago that kids who attend any kind of Jewish day school through 10th grade have an intermarriage rate of approximately 2 percent.
So, of course, I might find the philosophies taught in some schools to be anathma, but I'd far rather every Jewish child be in a Jewish day school -- even one with which I disagree -- than see the money spent as it is now.
I'm unaware of any Federation or other large Jewish philanthropic body that has made day school funding a priority. In fact, historically, the ideas were often nixed not because of the logistics of determining how to distribute funds, but because many of the leaders were and are philosophically opposed to day schools. |
Ok, I feel a bit better after all the scathing critiscm my (to me) simple idea received, that some people are actually implementing this idea. And I'm glad there are at least some people who can see beyond there own particulour needs.
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