Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Household Management
Clutter: Israelis vs. others
1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 12:59 pm
Quote:
The Israelis tended in years past (it's changed) not to have so much accumulation, no matter how many kids there were. By Americans, it's a different story. My house is clean but cluttered and no one will mistaken me for a born-and-bred tzabarit.


But born-and-bred Israelis originate from so many countries - Eastern European, North African, etc. and yet you think it is (or was) a national trait?

How do they do that? Don't they also have to save clothes and books and Things? How do they get rid of it - just throw it out or give it away?

What are their guidelines for whether to keep something or get rid of it?
Back to top

BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 1:02 pm
The guidelines are very simple...

Lack of Storage Space.

Israeli homes and apartments are not built with basements or closets and unless you're really lucky, you don't even have an attic space.
Back to top

Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 1:11 pm
No basements
No garages
No attics
No sheds in the back
No money to buy stuff
Nowhere to put what you do buy
Less dependence (though it's changed) on buying stuff as a recreational activity
Less incentive to buy because the sales are NOT like the U.S. where people believe that the more they buy - the more they save.

Most older apartments have a "boidem", a crawl space into which you can fit Pesach dishes or suitcases, but these days I think people are using that crawl space for air conditioning ducts - so even that option is pared down.

NEAT FREAKS: The traditional Sfardim (Moroccan, Tunisian, Libyan) you could eat off their floors practically any time of day. Yemenites: even cleaner. Traditional Yekkies and Polish: totally clean. I don't know anything about Israeli Chassidim but I am guessing they were traditionally very clean as well. My best cleaning I learned from the Moroccan and Tunesian and Yemenite ladies I taught while I was in the army. Traditional ladies get up at 5 am or so to clean the house before everyone else gets up, and clean it a few times during the day and again before everyone goes to sleep. LOL. I kid you not! I once stayed next to an old Yemenite lady who looked over 100 years old (all that cleaning). She would have the water from her washer drain into buckets and she would then rinse down her outside, tiled courtyard - a few times a week! When I offered to do it for her, she was insulted.
Their pots gleam, their linens are stacked like soldiers in the closet, their laundry done before the user can toss it on the floor. They know how to wield an iron. Sadly, among those who I taught, not many could read.
With education, I believe, comes less attention to these details. Who wants to clean when you can read a book?


Last edited by Tamiri on Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 1:32 pm
wow. This is fascinating.
Back to top

Imhappy!




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:01 pm
I can attest to that. Many a visit to separdi harms always find it sparkly clean
Back to top

Ima'la




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:10 pm
Ditto to YESHA and Tamiri.

Tamiri wrote:
Sadly, among those who I taught, not many could read.
With education, I believe, comes less attention to these details. Who wants to clean when you can read a book?


Why so sad? There are many kinds of "education" in the world - whose to say which is better?
Back to top

Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:17 pm
Ima'la wrote:

Why so sad? There are many kinds of "education" in the world - whose to say which is better?


Imagine life without the benefit of understanding the written word enough to read and learn. You can't help your children with their homework. It was fine for females when they lived in their Arab countries and most simple women had no education (there were always the higher class/more modern ones under French influence) but once they arrived in Israel, a developed nation, it was no longer practical.
Just as an aside, this was over 25 years ago and I can't imagine there is a large group of young illiterate Jews in Israel any more.
I know that the older Yemenites still keep house as I described. The younger ones - well, I am not too sure about that....
Back to top

supermama2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:49 pm
Well I think that aside from lacking education...these Traditional Yemenite women ( and the like ) from the "old school"... had an understanding of what work means and what it takes to make ones home like a mini Beis Mikdash...it seems that my generation ( now in the 20's or early 30's ) have little idea what it takes to run a home much less keep it sparkling... This is just imho of course and speaking for myself.. I am not assuming that my opinions run across the board here!

I'd love to spend time with these ladies while helping them work to see it done in real life!
Back to top

yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 5:23 pm
I've never lived in Israel and I throw everything out that's not nailed down shock . WATCH OUT Twisted Evil !!
Back to top

mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 8:37 pm
N
Quote:
EAT FREAKS: The traditional Sfardim (Moroccan, Tunisian, Libyan) you could eat off their floors practically any time of day. Yemenites: even cleaner. Traditional Yekkies and Polish: totally clean. I don't know anything about Israeli Chassidim but I am guessing they were traditionally very clean as well. My best cleaning I learned from the Moroccan and Tunesian and Yemenite ladies I taught while I was in the army. Traditional ladies get up at 5 am or so to clean the house before everyone else gets up, and clean it a few times during the day and again before everyone goes to sleep. LOL. I kid you not! I once stayed next to an old Yemenite lady who looked over 100 years old (all that cleaning). She would have the water from her washer drain into buckets and she would then rinse down her outside, tiled courtyard - a few times a week! When I offered to do it for her, she was insulted.
Their pots gleam, their linens are stacked like soldiers in the closet, their laundry done before the user can toss it on the floor. They know how to wield an iron. Sadly, among those who I taught, not many could read.
With education, I believe, comes less attention to these details. Who wants to clean when you can read a book?


Yup, this is my MIL to a T !!! (from Morocco)
I am so opposite, I don't know how dh puts up with me...but I am getting better b'h...I have to improve for shalom bayis. And now I am glad for it.

My parents seemed to have the attitude that a mark of intellectual people is to have clutter (books, notes from lectures etc..equals clutter)...but in university in England I discovered that it was possible to be educated and neat at the same time LOL (many of the European students were VERY mesudar!)

BTW I just didn't know how my MIL did it. I discovered flylady...and guess what...Flylady suggests morning and evening cleaning routines, scrubbing the bathroom every morning, decluttering...cleaning as you go...and I'm thinking "Wow, of all things Flylady is making me more Israeli!"

Shining your sink several times a day, doing a load of laundry every morning so you never have a laundry pile (when we were first married I asked MIL where her laundry hamper was. She looked at me like I was meshugat. She doesn't need a hamper!) LOL , decluttering, cleaning as you go...that's MIL...(and flylady!)

I used to think she was compulsive...well, maybe, but now I see she also does it out of love.. Very Happy
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 26 2008, 9:41 pm
Tamiri wrote:
No basements
No garages
No attics
No sheds in the back
No money to buy stuff
Nowhere to put what you do buy


Nechama Greisman a'h lived in Eretz Yisrael. She had a large family, she taught, and she was sought out by many women who loved to talk and learn from her. She was very organized and shared her tips for the kitchen and the house in general. Here's a link to her clothing system and if you look on the left side of the screen, you can see other chapters of tips to click on:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org.....3.htm

Because although space in Israel is at a premium, it makes no financial sense to throw things out or give them away when, G-d willing, there will be other children who will need those same exact items!
Back to top

ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:09 am
Motek wrote:
Quote:
The Israelis tended in years past (it's changed) not to have so much accumulation, no matter how many kids there were. By Americans, it's a different story. My house is clean but cluttered and no one will mistaken me for a born-and-bred tzabarit.


But born-and-bred Israelis originate from so many countries - Eastern European, North African, etc. and yet you think it is (or was) a national trait?

It's not an Israeli national trait to be clean. It's an American national trait to be cluttered.

The reason, as others have said, is probably the sheer volume of cheap "stuff" available in the states. As an example, my MIL keeps buying dh cheap socks, underwear, and tshirts in the states because it's just so inexpensive there that she figures hey, why not? So now dh has about 70 pairs of boxers, 20 tshirts he would never wear out of the house, 200 socks, and it's hard to keep them all organized in a small apartment space (I keep some under the bed, but for the most part I need that space for out of season clothes and things to be grown into). That would never happen to an Israeli family, or a family from pretty much anywhere else on earth, because socks are not $5 a package or whatever and so you only buy when your old ones are worn out and you actually need new. The same is true for kids' games and toys, electronics, dishes, etc--you can buy, but you won't buy until you actually need it; people are not going into department stores and picking things up just because the price is good.

Another issue--houses in the states are much, much bigger than in Israel, or Europe, or anywhere else. There aren't nearly as many people who can keep a large two-story, 4-bedroom building neat and clean as can clean a much smaller 3-bedroom apartment. You might have more room for all the stuff, but you also have more windows getting dirty, more floor space to mop, more corners accumulating dust, etc.

At this point, I think it's something that's become part of American culture. Because there's so much cheap stuff, and larger houses, and because in so many families both parents work and there just isn't time to organize all of the stuff, American standards of neat and clean are below the standards outside North America. So even Americans without a whole lot of stuff find it difficult to live up to the standards set by their Moroccan, Ethiopian, and eastern European neighbors, because they just aren't used to keeping things that washed and tidy.
Back to top

queen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:33 am
I'm a declutter queen.
I'm constantly looking out for things to give away or throw out.
Back to top

Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 12:53 am
I am going to go with Ora's American intellectual thing. Piles of books, magazines, papers to be read make the house look smart.
Tons of toys all over the house make the kids look well tended to.
Pantries and freezers full of food, some of which will expire before you use it make you feel wealthy
Closets bursting at the seams with clothing, most of which you can't/won't wear anymore is just... normal.

I don't think most of the world is like this. I only know the U.S. and Israel to compare, but I imagine that Europeans have less to deal with, just based on how the "Israelis" from Europe keep their houses.
Back to top

Akeres Habayis




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 3:59 am
btw the clothes are kept,but packed neatly away,no new things are bought so no clutter.
if something happens to the clothes broken zipper,a little tear etc then its mended....beautifully.
so no clutter,of excess things,who really needs 4pair of shoes for ea kid or 20skirts for yourself??
most ladies have clothes dafka for shabbos,yom tov and weekday.and it isn't in excess.practicality is the key.

america is known for more more more,now now now
Back to top

Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 6:58 am
Akeres, you are handy with a needle and thread?
Back to top

Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 8:10 am
Akeres Habayis wrote:
btw the clothes are kept,but packed neatly away,no new things are bought so no clutter.
if something happens to the clothes broken zipper,a little tear etc then its mended....beautifully.
so no clutter,of excess things,who really needs 4pair of shoes for ea kid or 20skirts for yourself??
most ladies have clothes dafka for shabbos,yom tov and weekday.and it isn't in excess.practicality is the key.

america is known for more more more,now now now


20 skirts = not so many if you include maternity, the pre pregnancy sizes, etc
Back to top

zigi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 11:27 am
motek thanks for posting the links to nechoma greisman! she really helped me get all of the kids clothes in order.

I guess european apt are smaller than american houses so you really can't build up the clutter. dh is russian he learned to throw out everythin you don't need, I grew up in a pack rat house, he converted me, if its ripped beyond repair or stained I throw it out. I never know what to do with papers, I might need them that s my problem. I guess I really should invest in a shredder.

20 skirts isn't so crazy, when I have a newborn I am constantly covered in body fluid. andi don't have accsess to a washing machine. I wish I could do laundry every day. it can really build up!

the comment about not being educated so you clean. I am lazy I do like to read but I also like a clean house, cleaning as you go makes cleaning easier, you are basically maintaining a clean house, not cleaning a dirty house.
Back to top

Akeres Habayis




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 1:11 pm
I'm not so handy,but those things I can do,and I'm trying to get into sewing my clothes again...once yeshasettler can spare me some time LOL .
anyway,u become handy with patches,which are cute and iron on,zippers u can find someone to do them for u or learn yourself.children clothes usually require a few stitches here or there,not anything dramatic.

20 skirts are 20 skirts.
how many shabbos outfits do u need??or weekday clothes shock I dont own 20skirts pre/post maternity,and I think I am a pretty put together person if I say so myself. Wink

its a different mentality.
I think that's when clutter comes in,when u have more than u can wear or use.


Last edited by Akeres Habayis on Wed, Aug 27 2008, 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 27 2008, 1:15 pm
queen wrote:
I'm a declutter queen.
I'm constantly looking out for things to give away or throw out.

Can you come help me PLEASE???! LOL
Back to top
Page 1 of 3 1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Household Management

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Wwyd - sons broke each others glasses on purpose
by amother
26 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 10:42 am View last post
Beautiful! -Israeli Comedian Urges others To Keep Shabbos
by ddmom
0 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 7:23 am View last post
Taking away others cleaning help erev pesach
by amother
66 Sat, Mar 16 2024, 5:47 pm View last post
Besides jalapeno peppers, which others can be used
by amother
3 Sat, Mar 02 2024, 9:08 pm View last post
For Mattresses: Friedmans, Mattress Maven, or others
by amother
30 Thu, Feb 15 2024, 9:49 pm View last post