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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling -> Summer Camps
Non-Jewish camp, chizzuk needed
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NotInNJMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2024, 6:27 pm
giftedmom wrote:
Kosher food is literally the least of concerns here. That is only one aspect of being a Frum Jew. What use is it if he’s eating kosher food but consuming non-kosher ideas?


1. Two separate things
2. My children are around anti Torah ideas in their frum school around gezhe otherwise Ehrlich frum kids.
3. If I had a choice between affording tuition in Jewish day school or not depending if I sent to a Jewish day camp, of course it’s a no brainer.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2024, 6:31 pm
NotInNJMommy wrote:
OP, if this is a professional camp, they probably don’t allow sharing food. Plenty of kids have special diets so you can be up front about your child’s diet. Also many camps ask about family religious or cultural backgrounds/observances that they should know about.

It’s all hashgachah pratis. If you do your hishtadlus, it’s exactly where Hashem wants your kids to be.

I’ve also had to send to secular Jewish or non Jewish daycamps and public school at times. It doesn’t help my kids to be living in a homeless shelter or in the foster system. I’d also 100% prioritize school tuition over camp fees.

I had a lot of promises of help too throughout the years and lots of folks just telling me to quit my job as a single mom. The “pledges” are usually not true/viable.

I do my hishtadlus. Hashem does the rest.

Plenty of frum programs can turn kids off frumkeit as much or worse than secular programs. Only Hashem knows.


Choosing to send to a non Jewish camps is NOT the kind of hishtadlus that someone should feel confident is what Hashem wants, and certainly not, as you say, “where Hashem wants her kids to be.” That is beyond an upside down way to view hishtadlus and bechira. You clearly need to look into getting a better understanding of these concepts.

Bechira to choose right from wrong is a person’s choice and not “hashgacha pratis” from Hashem. It’s in the person’s hands. Results come from Hashem.

Saying plenty of frum programs can turn frum kids off frumkeit too, is an upside down excuse as well. Doing proper hishtadlus means sending to a frum environment and then leaving the results to Hashem, NOT sending to a non Jewish environment and claiming that’s what Hashem brought about through hashgacha, and expecting good results. WADR your analysis of all these issues is dangerous to promote as it can cause people who are less knowledgeable about such things to have a skewed understanding as well.
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NotInNJMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2024, 6:34 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Choosing to send to a non Jewish camps is NOT the kind of hishtadlus that someone should feel confident is what Hashem wants, and certainly not, as you say, “where Hashem wants her kids to be.” That is beyond an upside down way to view hishtadlus and bechira. You clearly need to look into getting a better understanding of these concepts.

Bechira to choose right from wrong is a person’s choice and not “hashgacha pratis” from Hashem. It’s in the person’s hands. Results come from Hashem.

Saying plenty of frum programs can turn frum kids off frumkeit too, is an upside down excuse as well. Doing proper hishtadlus means sending to a frum environment and then leaving the results to Hashem, NOT sending to a non Jewish environment and claiming that’s what Hashem brought about through hashgacha, and expecting good results. WADR your analysis of all these issues is dangerous to promote as it can cause people who are less knowledgeable about such things to have a skewed understanding as well.


Of course it should be a priority to send to Jewish day camps etc. if all things are equal and even if not to an extent.

I got Daas Torah and the non Jewish day camps in my area were preferred to me losing or quitting my job. In fact, the rav was pretty shocked that I’d consider being homeless or quitting my job to schnorr. So, clearly it can be doing one’s hishtadlus and can be ratzon ha Elyon. We each have to answer for ourselves after 120.
I also think the women on this site have enough seichel to know what it means to actually do one’s hishtadlus—which ultimately only the individual and Hashem can know.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2024, 3:36 pm
Cheiny wrote:
There are options. If there’s a will there’s a way.

Im glad you think its JUST THST EASY. It is not always thst way.
There sometimes is NO other option.
NOT EVERYONE CAN KEEP THEIR KIDS HOME. Simple as that.
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2024, 3:49 pm
amother OP wrote:
My DS, age 8 is going to a non-Jewish camp this summer. We had no other choice, it was the only place we can afford. The next cheapest option would be hundreds of dollars more PER WEEK. He can't stay home, I have to work. We live in a large city in the US, I'm really worried about anti-semitism. He has plenty of exposure to the outside world, I'm not worried about him learning about things he doesn't already know, he knows not to eat anything. I really could use some chizzuk, please. We've tried every possible avenue we could think of and pre-Oct 7 it probably would have been fine.

If you cant afford to do Jewish camp and live in a big city then why are you not moving?
Don't live in a large city then.
You did not try ever possible avenue.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2024, 4:03 pm
Jewishmom8 wrote:
If you cant afford to do Jewish camp and live in a big city then why are you not moving?
Don't live in a large city then.
You did not try ever possible avenue.

Because everyone can just up and move, right?
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Thu, Jun 13 2024, 1:35 am
What sort of chizzuk are you looking for?
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 13 2024, 3:56 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Because everyone can just up and move, right?

This did not just come up today.
Our choices have consequences.
There is a price to pay for everything in life.
Now maybe this year she can't up and move but if she is beginning to realize that she is not able to raise her children how she wants where she is living then get the ball rolling for the future.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2024, 1:15 pm
OP here. I am respectfully asking people to keep to the scope of the original post.
-Anyone who is suggesting that I haven't done due diligence needs to take a seat. Not only have I done due diligence but given that there are more urgently pressing issues in our lives (medical), it feels trite to say "oh, just do X". You don't know all of the specifics of my situation but you need to trust I've done everything possible.
-I have already said in the original post that my son is not sheltered, between living in a big city and having non frum family he is well aware of things like LGBTQ, drugs, etc. He handles these things well and we have discussed these issues due to necessity.
-I am honestly insulted by how little credit some of you give both myself and my son. I know my child, I know our resources and the details of our situation better than you do. If you cannot simply stick to the antisemitism issue then please leave.

Thank you to everyone who has shared that they have also sent kids to non-Jewish camp or public school. This is helpful.
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amother
Cornsilk


 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2024, 1:26 pm
One of my sons will be doing a week of non-Jewish specialty sports camp next week. Day camp. Bli neder I'll report back on how it went.
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amother
White


 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2024, 10:40 pm
First off, I did not read all the responses, but came to share my positive experiences.

My oldest went to the local YMCA every summer for day camp. He had an absolutely great experience, never had any issues with antisemitism. The non Jewish day camp was a good experience in that my oldest got to do different sports and activities not provided by the local Jewish day camp. Plus the cost was more affordable & the hours were way better, compared to the local Jewish day camp. Also, I liked the fact that my son got an opportunity to meet non-Jewish kids from different cultures & backgrounds. My oldest is now 16 years old & has a very strong frum Jewish identity.

In fact, my teen son is currently now attending a small local public charter school for high school. Unfortunately the local yeshivah was not a good fit for my teen & my family does not like to send our kids away for schooling. My son has been much happier since switching to public school & in fact is MORE interested in Judaic learning these days. Of his own accord he attends the local kollel after school to learn with a friend. And my son started a Jewish club at his school. In fact, I have seen one of his Jewish classmates from his public school start to become more observant & I think that is due to my son’s positive influence. Additionally my son wears his kippah every day to his school & BH he has NOT dealt with any antisemitism so far. His class and teachers have all been supportive.

I also have an elementary age daughter who is currently attending our local YMCA this summer. The Y is much more affordable than the current Jewish summer camps. My daughter is currently having a blast & so far there has been no issues with antisemitism. My daughter also did the Y last summer and had a great experience. And my daughter has a strong Jewish identity. Judaic learning starts in the home & I do my best to make Jewish learning fun & meaningful at home. And this last year she was in public school too. I would prefer that she was in Jewish school, but due to various circumstances I had to switch her to public school. And overall she has been doing great.

Anyways, I hope this helps and gives you the chizzuk you need. Just do the best you can with your circumstances and ignore all the mean and unhelpful comments. Yes it’s possible for a Jewish kid to be successful in a non Jewish or non frum environment. It’s not easy, but possible & at the end of the day I think the values you teach in the home is what will be most important.

(Also, I want to add, going to only Jewish schools & camps doesn’t mean your kid will stay frum. Over the last few years I have seen the kids of a few of my friends & community members rebel & become non-observant.)
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2024, 11:53 pm
amother White wrote:
First off, I did not read all the responses, but came to share my positive experiences.

My oldest went to the local YMCA every summer for day camp. He had an absolutely great experience, never had any issues with antisemitism. The non Jewish day camp was a good experience in that my oldest got to do different sports and activities not provided by the local Jewish day camp. Plus the cost was more affordable & the hours were way better, compared to the local Jewish day camp. Also, I liked the fact that my son got an opportunity to meet non-Jewish kids from different cultures & backgrounds. My oldest is now 16 years old & has a very strong frum Jewish identity.

In fact, my teen son is currently now attending a small local public charter school for high school. Unfortunately the local yeshivah was not a good fit for my teen & my family does not like to send our kids away for schooling. My son has been much happier since switching to public school & in fact is MORE interested in Judaic learning these days. Of his own accord he attends the local kollel after school to learn with a friend. And my son started a Jewish club at his school. In fact, I have seen one of his Jewish classmates from his public school start to become more observant & I think that is due to my son’s positive influence. Additionally my son wears his kippah every day to his school & BH he has NOT dealt with any antisemitism so far. His class and teachers have all been supportive.

I also have an elementary age daughter who is currently attending our local YMCA this summer. The Y is much more affordable than the current Jewish summer camps. My daughter is currently having a blast & so far there has been no issues with antisemitism. My daughter also did the Y last summer and had a great experience. And my daughter has a strong Jewish identity. Judaic learning starts in the home & I do my best to make Jewish learning fun & meaningful at home. And this last year she was in public school too. I would prefer that she was in Jewish school, but due to various circumstances I had to switch her to public school. And overall she has been doing great.

Anyways, I hope this helps and gives you the chizzuk you need. Just do the best you can with your circumstances and ignore all the mean and unhelpful comments. Yes it’s possible for a Jewish kid to be successful in a non Jewish or non frum environment. It’s not easy, but possible & at the end of the day I think the values you teach in the home is what will be most important.

(Also, I want to add, going to only Jewish schools & camps doesn’t mean your kid will stay frum. Over the last few years I have seen the kids of a few of my friends & community members rebel & become non-observant.)


Yes, there are no guarantees that every child who attends Yeshiva and frum camps will stay frum. But that’s hardly making a case for sending to non Jewish schools and camps, where it is much more likely the children will be influenced by their friends and peers there. I don’t believe any Rov would back up your claims that it’s mostly what happens at home that will determine how they end up… in today’s world kids are very vulnerable to peer pressure, wanting to fit in with their friends and the influences of secular society. No Jew should take this lightly and assume it’ll be fine if their kids go to non Jewish schools or camps. That’s just not the reality.
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