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What do we really think about secular achievements?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 7:02 am
In the Mystics, Mavericks and Merrymakers book, the girl who left B.R. after 11th grade for Stern College and who had plans for medical school, said, "There's something interesting going on. People think it's not the best for me to be in Stern and thinking of med. school, but then again, they're so, so impressed."

Seems like a good topic for Chanuka discussions. What did the Misyavnim (Hellenizers) want? They wanted the beauty of the Greek culture. The Greeks did not want to outlaw Torah as other governments tried to do. The Greeks said - you've got a philosophy? Great. As long as you leave G-d out of it.

What's with us and out attitudes towards the "outside world"? Seems like we know the right thing to SAY about the supremacy of Torah and how all wisdom is derived from Torah, but when it comes down to it, many if not most of us are impressed and even intimidated by people with degrees and professional careers. And I don't think it's only about the money that some people with degrees earn. I think the admiration is exclusive of earning power.

So who do admire more - the brilliant rosh yeshiva or the brilliant physicist?

or do we think that a synthesis (the Torah-learned lawyer) is best of all?
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 9:11 am
I personally admire those whose sphere of positive influence extends beyond their own daled amos. Regardless of educational level, career choice, etc.
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shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 9:19 am
I think, like just how it was in the "olden" days, some were the water carriers, some were the meat choppers, and some sat and learned. who can say who gets more zchus. we arent the ones to judge. all I can say, is that the rebbe was very into technology and wordly matters, and using those things to better the world...
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chanala




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 9:40 am
It's funny you should mention this Motek - after reading the other thread, I ordered it up through our city library system, and read it in 2 nights!

It was fascinating, with some very, very sad parts. I guess you ladies would consider me modern compared to Lubavitch - but compared to most of the O population in my small city, I'm ultra-O in my thinking, LOL.

With the exception of our congregational and Kollel rabbis, not being employed in the secular world is just not an option here.

Re: "The Greeks did not want to outlaw Torah as other governments tried to do. The Greeks said - you've got a philosophy? Great. As long as you leave G-d out of it." I thought outlawing Torah was exactly what they wanted to do? The whole let's-play-dreidel-instead thing? Or is that folklore? Confused

Re: "What's with us and out attitudes towards the "outside world"?" Define "us". Wink

I'll tell you about MY attitude toward the 'outside world' - while I have a college degree, by no means am I a scholar in anything. But for many years before becoming religious, I worked for several arts organizations, and saw all sorts of things can can and would damage the psyche of someone trying to stay on the derech - opera story lines involving s*x, complete lack of shomer negiah if you know what I mean, etc. Holiday programs concentrating on the, er, majority religion here. Just being around people in administrative offices who are involved in 'alternative lifestyles' and flaunt it, the foul language that is completely acceptable in those environments. Blech. I work PT for the Kollel now and it's bliss!!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 11:16 am
chanala wrote:
I thought outlawing Torah was exactly what they wanted to do? The whole let's-play-dreidel-instead thing? Or is that folklore? Confused


good you brought that up

seems there were different periods under Greek rule"

Quote:
At one point, the Greeks declared that it was forbidden to study Torah. The Rabbis would take their students and hide in the woods and in caves, and study Torah with them there. They took along dreidels. If a Greek soldier found them, they would pretend they were gambling with the dreidels.


but at another point the Greeks were only interested in removing G-d from Judaism as we say in the Al Ha'Nissim prayer: "to make them forget Torasecha" - Your Torah, that Torah is from G-d.
'Write on the horn of the ox that you have no portion in the G-d of Yisrael' ".

Quote:
Re: "What's with us and out attitudes towards the "outside world"?" Define "us". Wink


us=frum women
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 12:14 pm
It depends what kind of achievements.

For example, I think highly about frum mathematicians, information technology specialists and other precise sciences, also doctors..

I don't think anything about jewish ballerinas.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 12:57 pm
Quote:
I don't think anything about jewish ballerinas

Why NOT Twisted Evil
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 1:56 pm
roza wrote:
For example, I think highly about frum mathematicians, information technology specialists and other precise sciences, also doctors..


is it because you respect their brains?
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chanab




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 2:00 pm
Quote:
I think highly about frum mathematicians, information technology specialists and other precise sciences, also doctors

mathematicians, doctors etc who became these professions before they were frum ? Or do you mean that frum ppl should become mathematicians, doctors etc?
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 2:57 pm
chanab wrote:
Quote:
I think highly about frum mathematicians, information technology specialists and other precise sciences, also doctors

mathematicians, doctors etc who became these professions before they were frum ? Or do you mean that frum ppl should become mathematicians, doctors etc?


I don't mean that frum ppl should become academics but if someone did (lets say, because he felt that it was his calling in life or due to his upbringing ie he comes from the family of professionals) - I respect his achievements (with the condition that his yidishkeit is strong, if not stronger).

Motek wrote:
roza wrote:
For example, I think highly about frum mathematicians, information technology specialists and other precise sciences, also doctors..


is it because you respect their brains?


Again, please don't read things out of my posts that I did not say.
the question was if we admire ppl with secular achievements. my answer is yes, BUT -depends what kind of achievement. Even among ppl with 'brains' I don't admire lawyers, MBAs, for example. (this is just my personal opinion). I am also impressed by ppl with degrees in education and who are great educators. I hope there is nothing wrong with that. What

Obviously, Torah scholars are in different category, they get my most admiration and I don't want even to compare Torah scholar with ppl with degrees.
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IndyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 7:06 pm
I have a further question...

Men are supposed to be learning, and when they have to work the "torah community" considers it Bedi'eved. They must work to support a family - but they SHOULD be learning torah. Is a man allowed to feel accomplished and proud of what he is doing? Or should he feel that he is only doing what he needs to do in order to survive.

By the same token - women are supposed to be raising the children, and some work "bedi'eved". Are women allowed to feel accomplished and proud of their work? Are they allowed to pursue further interests beyond their family not just for parnasah?

You all know that I am pre-med - but I still struggle with this on a daily basis.
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Earnest




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 25 2005, 9:12 pm
I think it's important to cultivate the talents and gifts Hashem gave us, and there is a time and place to develop secular achievements. Aside from abstaining from the sin of neglecting your obligation to utilize your talents and interests (of course, in a kosher way and in a kosher arena; but almost anything can be utilized l'shem shamayim) Let's not overlook the fact that there is almost always financial benefits that result from secular achievements
.
I find it really difficult to proceed in this avodas Hashem (I must mention that my kids are mostly married or independent teens, and my husband is supportive of my entering the world of secular accomplishments), It's difficult because I have a fear about competition and fear about accomplishing milestones that are official and measurable;.(including test-anxiety.) I'm not giving up, but its the most courageous thing I've ever done. It's always been hard for me to follow through on projects and dreams.
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chanala




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 26 2005, 9:17 am
roza wrote:
I don't think anything about jewish ballerinas.


I personally don't know any Jewish ballerinas, but I have to admit that I love to watch ballet. It's on PBS once in a great while. A leftover from my "prevous life", I suppose...
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 26 2005, 3:07 pm
IndyMom wrote:
Men are supposed t be learning, and when they have to work the "torah community" considers it Bedi'eved. They must work to support a family - but they SHOULD be learning torah. Is a man allowed to feel accomplished and proud of what he is doing? Or should he feel that he is only doing what he needs to do in order to survive.


Something I read may answer that question. After eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam was cursed with "by the sweat of your brow you will eat bread." Until very recently, people worked to provide food, clothing, and shelter. Work was considered a "necessary evil" in light of Adam's curse. A tremendous change has taken place where people now pursue "careers" for far more than the ability to provide for themselves. The career is not only a means to an end ($ for x.y.z) but something that is seen as glamorous in itself. And according to what I read, we should be looking to fulfill as LITTLE of the curse as possible, not as much as possible!

With men and work there's another issue of bittul Torah which is very, very stringent, so ideally, a man would work in order to provide and would use every spare moment for Torah study or other vital community work. As far as taking pride in his work, I think the Jewish way is to take pride in being "erhlich" (honest) in business, to make a kiddush Hashem wherever one is and to truly believe that one's work is only a "keli" (a tool, a means) to earn a livelihood but that the money really comes from G-d.

Quote:
Are they allowed to pursue further interests beyond their family not just for parnasah?


women as well as men - aren't we here to serve G-d? And aren't optional activities also meant to be done l'sheim shomayim (for the sake of heaven)?

re what I wrote earlier:

Quote:
seems there were different periods under Greek rule


when I repeated this to someone, I was told no - it's not that there were different periods but that the Greeks outlawed Torah study unless it was devoid of G-d and since Torah cannot be devoid of G-d, the Jews were persecuted for studying Torah
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 02 2006, 9:38 pm
about being proud of your work, there are Torah sources (Pirkey avos, Bereishis-"Six days shall you labor and do all your work) and stories that tell us about dignity of work and how 'work' *is* what gives us our dignity, as well as our sense of self-worth.

-about women and pursuing interests/passions- I heard the same idea from 2 different sources: in the name of Malka Touger [one of her tapes] and some Litvishe rebetzin.
There are two names for 'woman' - Chavah and Ishah.
'Chavah' -represents the role of the woman as 'a mother' -source of life and future of Jewish people.
'Ishah' -represents the role of the woman as an individual and in according with her own personality [Malka T. gave her work outside of the family as an example of such expression of her individuality, but she said it's different from woman to woman, and it does not have to be in community - I.g. communal work]

- I am not disagreeing with the inyan of the 'work' being a keli for parnosa , it's just that there is more to it.

-Also, Motek [since you started this thread], what do you personally think about secular achievements?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:13 am
roza wrote:
about being proud of your work, there are Torah sources (Pirkey avos, Bereishis-"Six days shall you labor and do all your work)


what does "six days shall you labor .." have to do with pride in work? Confused

please quote if you have sources

Quote:
and stories that tell us about dignity of work and how 'work' *is* what gives us our dignity, as well as our sense of self-worth.


dignity in working over taking charity, yes, but that's not pride in one's accomplishments

Quote:
Motek [since you started this thread], what do you personally think about secular achievements?


that I, along with most people I know, no matter their background, am impressed by secular achievements whether in the "brain department" (math, science, medicine) or business

and I think it indicates that I haven't fully internalized Torah values
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:31 pm
Quote:
that I, along with most people I know, no matter their background, am impressed by secular achievements whether in the "brain department" (math, science, medicine) or business

and I think it indicates that I haven't fully internalized Torah values


Are you going to try and be unimpressed with people who have invented numerous machines to make our lives easier, with people who have discovered cures for illnesses that keep our families safe and all our babies alive, with people who have invented communication devices that assist in the spread of Judaism all over the world ? Would that be fully internalizing Torah values ? Huh ? Confused
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:33 pm
To respect them MORE than we respect those who spend their whole time in Torah? No, I don't think that would be internalizing Torah values.
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:35 pm
Quote:
After eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam was cursed with "by the sweat of your brow you will eat bread." Until very recently, people worked to provide food, clothing, and shelter. Work was considered a "necessary evil" in light of Adam's curse. A tremendous change has taken place where people now pursue "careers" for far more than the ability to provide for themselves. The career is not only a means to an end ($ for x.y.z) but something that is seen as glamorous in itself. And according to what I read, we should be looking to fulfill as LITTLE of the curse as possible, not as much as possible!


Okay, so if work is supposed to be a curse and viewing it as fulfilling is wrong, are you going to try and be unimpressed with women who accept an epidural during labor ? That will leave you with very few people to be impressed by.
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:36 pm
Quote:
To respect them MORE than we respect those who spend their whole time in Torah? No, I don't think that would be internalizing Torah values.


I didn't get the impression that this was a "more" or "less" respect issue. I sort of thought that the question is whether or not we should respect secular achievements at all.
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