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What do we really think about secular achievements?
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 04 2006, 7:33 pm
Excuse me, but if you go to Uni and get a degree but are still frum and keep to torah, how does that make you similar to the Hellenists??
It wasn't just the Greek philosophy they took on, it was the Nudist Olympics and the whole culture.
I respect people who have gone through higher education and spent the years seriously working hard and learning hard to be able to better the world.
The men who get their degree to be able to support their family properly and also make time to do learning a few evenings a week I respect alot more.
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 04 2006, 7:45 pm
imo I have great respect for those who Live according to the torah whether they learn all day or not. I also have great respect for those with great knowledge in what you call secular/career area's however all the math, science is in the torah so I don't see how you would consider that depth of knowledge secular. Doesn't it say somewhere that you are even allowed to be jealous of chachma?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 5:52 pm
Mandy wrote:
Okay, so if work is supposed to be a curse and viewing it as fulfilling is wrong, are you going to try and be unimpressed with women who accept an epidural during labor ? That will leave you with very few people to be impressed by.


and the logic is?

and what do you mean by "supposed to be a curse"? the Torah says that having to work in order to eat is a curse

redsea wrote:
all the math, science is in the torah so I don't see how you would consider that depth of knowledge secular.


everything is in Torah, true, but studying secular subjects outside of Torah is not comparable to learning it from Torah

p.s. there's a whole thread on the subject of Secular Studies

rivka wrote:
It wasn't just the Greek philosophy they took on, it was the Nudist Olympics and the whole culture.


that's an extreme but surely there were people then, just as there are nowadays, who didn't go "all the way"
do you agree that there are Shomer Shabbos Jews today who embrace western culture?
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 5:59 pm
Motek wrote:


redsea wrote:
all the math, science is in the torah so I don't see how you would consider that depth of knowledge secular.


everything is in Torah, true, but studying secular subjects outside of Torah is not comparable to learning it from Torah



I've yet to hear of a yeshiva that actually delves into the portions of the torah that contain science and mathematics - maybe in some other era they did - but today? I think they stick to certain parts over others, I heard of one elementary school that does - but should it be mainstreamed in all yeshiva's then and do away with those subjects in the secular dept's?
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 09 2006, 2:51 pm
Motek wrote:

and what do you mean by "supposed to be a curse"? the Torah says that having to work in order to eat is a curse


You hit the nail right on the head, Motek: Having to work in order to eat is a curse. Work itself is not, at all. Odom Horishon was not supposed to be idle: in fact, he had a job, which was to take care of the garden.

Bereishis 2:15: vayikach Hashem Elokim es ho-odom vayanichehu v'Gan Eden L'OVDOH u-l'SHOMROH:

And Hashem took the man and placed him in Gan Eden TO WORK IT and TO WATCH OVER IT.

Prior to his sin, Odom was supposed to work, but his living was not dependent upon that work. The curse was not that he would work; it was that he would have to work very hard to earn his bread, and the land would not cooperate willingly.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 10 2006, 12:12 pm
chen wrote:
Odom Horishon was not supposed to be idle: in fact, he had a job, which was to take care of the garden.


what sort of work do you think that Adam, whose heel was as bright as the sun, who the angels mistook for G-d and wanted to say holy, holy, holy to, whose height was from the heavens to the earth, did? pulled weeds in the garden?
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:12 pm
Maybe his job was naming the animals. And all the chassidus that goes along with that.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:19 pm
L'OVDOH- Chazal say this refers to the 248 positive mitzvos

u-l'SHOMROH- Chazal say this refers to the 365 negative mitzvos
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 15 2006, 11:19 am
I agree that

Quote:
this is a test, not a Mitzva. It is Adam's curse to work the land, one of the many obstacles facing man in his drive towards spiritual devotion. Success in the physical world is not our goal, nor should it be the focus of our attention.

This world may be a vehicle for the service of G-d. But, it is not an excuse for fun and pleasure.

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/.....9.htm



and

Quote:
The Torah definition of exile is any 'experience' -- short or long term -- that lessens one's ability to focus on and serve G-d. That was Adam HaRishon's curse of work. G-d wasn't saying to Adam that he'd never find a job that he could enjoy; He was telling him that his new life outside of Paradise would involve responsibilities, such as earning a living, that would lessen his ability to directly serve G-d.

http://www.torah.org/learning/......html




On the other hand there are sources that tell us the value of work and that work is a Mitzvah:

Quote:


When Yisro advises Moshe Rabbeinu as to how to effectively lead Bnai Yisrael and minister to their needs, he tells him that he must make the people aware of the path that they must follow and the actions they must do (Shemos 18:20). The Gemara in Bava Metzia (30b) derives from one phrase in the Posuk (Ibid.) that Yisro instructed Moshe to teach the people "Beis Chayeihem" which may be loosely translated as "a way of life." Rashi (Ibid. s.v. Zeh Beis Chayeihem) explains this to mean that people must be taught a trade or a profession by which to earn a living.

Chazal in a number of places speak of the value of the involvement in work. In Pirkei Avos (1:10), we are taught to love work; Rashi (Ibid. s.v. Ahuv), referring to a Gemara in Pesachim (113a), explains that one should never consider himself too great or too important to work, and adds that by working, a person will not have to become involved in theft or dishonesty, and will also not have to depend on gifts from Tzedakah to survive. Later in Pirkei Avos (2:2), we read that even continued success in Torah depends on one's being engaged in work as well. The Gemara in Gittin (67b) praises hard work because it "warms one up," meaning that it is healthy for the body, an idea echoed by the Klei Yakar (on Bereishis 3:19) who affirms that it is healthy to work before eating. He backs this idea up with a Posuk from Tehillim (128:2) which praises one who eats the fruits of his own hard work; the Gemara in Berachos (8a), quoting this same Posuk, suggests that in a certain respect, one who benefits from his own hard work is greater than one who is a Yira Shomayim, a G-d fearing person. Some of these ideas are codified in the Shulchan Aruch by the Ramo (Yoreh Deah 246:21).

The Beraisa in Avos DeRabbi Nosson (Perek 11 Halachah 1) greatly praises work, indicating that work was presented as part of a covenant, just as the Torah was, that it can save one from death, that Hashem did not allow His Shechinah to dwell within Bnai Yisrael until the people had physically worked to build the Mishkan, and that one must always try to find some work with which to occupy one's time. This last point is followed by the notion that idleness leads one to death; the Mishnah in Kesubos (59b) indicates that idleness can lead to insanity, or, as some understand it, depression. The Gemara in Nedarim (49b) asserts that work brings honor to the one who does it, and the Tosefta in Kiddushin (Perek 1 Halachah 9) also documents the value of having a trade. The Pardes Yosef, on the above Posuk in this Parsha (Ibid.) lists, as do others, many of the Tannaim and Amoraim who had professions which they were involved with, including many who were engaged in physical labor.

The Rashbatz, in his commentary on Pirkei Avos entitled Magen Avos (Perek 1 Mishnah 10), writes that pursuing one's profession is a Mitzvah from the Torah. This view may be based on the opinion quoted in the Mechilta DeRabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, based on the language of the Posuk later in this Parsha (Shemos 20:9), that just as there is a Mitzvah to rest on Shabbos, there is a Mitzvah to work the rest of the week. The Mordechai in Shabbos (Siman 258, 70b in the Rif) quotes Rabbeinu Tam who apparently agrees; he thus allows one to travel on Erev Shabbos, which is generally restricted MideRabbanan, if it's for the purpose of one's livelihood, because that is considered a Mitzvah. This view is quoted and accepted by the Tur (Orach Chaim Siman 248); the Beis Yosef (Ibid. s.v. L'Inyan), however, writes that not everyone agrees, citing the Rivash (Sheilos U'Teshuvos HaRivash Siman 101) who disagrees with Rabbeinu Tam about this. The Ra'avyah, though, in his commentary on Maseches Shabbos (Siman 198), agrees and goes a step further, suggesting that even if one has enough to live on and wants simply to earn more, that too is still considered a Mitzvah. In the Shulchan Aruch, the Ramo (Orach Chaim Ibid. Sif 4) rules that going someplace for business purposes is considered a Mitzvah; the Magen Avraham (Ibid. Sif Katan 19) extends the Mitzvah even to the case where one is looking just to increase one's profit, as stated above. He also hints that the Mechaber, based on his ruling elsewhere (Ibid. 531:4), may likewise agree to this. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Sheilos U'Teshuvos Igros Moshe Orach Chaim Chelek 2 Siman 111) writes as well that one is obligated to involve oneself in business in order to earn a living.

Based on all of the above, it is not surprising that the Gemara in Kiddushin (29a) states that one of the obligations of a parent regarding his child is that he must teach him or see that he learns a trade. One Tanna even asserts that if a parent does not do this, it is as if he taught the child to be a thief. The Ramo in the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah Ibid.) accepts this position. The Yerushalmi in Kiddushin (Perek 1 Halachah 7, 19a) actually states that the Torah's directive "U'Vacharta B'Chaim", meaning choose life (Devarim 30:19), refers to choosing a profession; this is why a parent must teach his child a trade. The Gemara later (30b) derives this obligation from a Posuk in Koheles (9:9) where Rashi explains that one's professional pursuits should accompany one's Torah study; both Torah and a profession must thus be taught to the child. The Gemara in Shabbos (150a) allows one to discuss teaching a child a trade on Shabbos because it is a Mitzvah (See Ibid. Rashi s.v. L'Lamdo), and it is thus not improper Shabbos conversation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 306:6) rules accordingly.

At the end of Kiddushin (82a), the Mishnah says that one should teach one's child an easy and clean profession, and then lists certain professions to be avoided because they are dangerous, leading one to either s-xual immorality or dishonesty. The Gemara (Ibid. 82b) elaborates on some of this, distinguishing between certain dignified and undignified professions, urging that one avoid the latter. The Gemara in Erchin (16b) suggests that one should pursue the profession of one's parents. The Chovos HaLevavos (Sha'ar HaBitachon, end of Perek 3) discusses different means of earning a livelihood and recommends that one pursue the profession which he desires and for which he is physically fit.

One Tanna in this aforementioned Mishnah (Ibid.) appears to hold, however, that one should teach one's child only Torah, because unlike any other profession, involvement in Torah brings one everlasting rewards, while excellence in it can be achieved even at an advanced age. This opinion seems to be contrary to the above documented idea that one should pursue a profession and indeed fulfills a Mitzvah by so doing. Many Meforshim, though, hold that there is no dispute here. The Maharsha (Chidushei Aggados L'Kiddushin 82a s.v. L'Olam) understands that the only issue is how much time and effort one designates to teaching a trade; this Tanna is merely stressing that the emphasis in teaching must be on Torah, but that teaching Torah should be along with, not to the exclusion of, teaching a trade. The Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Hilchos Talmud Torah Perek 3, in Kuntres Acharon s.v. V'Hani) likewise asserts that there is no dispute; one must first teach one's child Torah, but he must then teach him a trade as well. The Sdei Chemed (Pe'at HaSadeh, Ma'areches HaAlef Klallim Siman 160) quotes a view that people who rely on this Mishnah (Ibid.) not to teach their children a trade make a serious error and bring about a Chillul Hashem.

It is worth noting that there is a notion that one may pursue Torah as one's "career" (Toraso Umnoso). The Gemara in Berachos (16b) formulates a Tefillah to request the ability to do this, and the Gemara in Shabbos (11a) cites some examples of people who achieved this. The Rambam (Hilchos Shmittah V'Yovel 13:13) seems to allow and even praise one who dedicates himself to Torah alone and avoids the mundane activities of this world. It appears, however, that even one at this level is not necessarily free of having a profession as a means of support. The Rambam himself writes elsewhere (Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10) that it is a Chillul Hashem not to work in order to learn Torah and then live off of Tzedakah; the Kessef Mishneh (Ibid.), however, makes some important comments there, offering an alternative approach to this issue, but the Ramo cited above (Yoreh Deah Ibid.) appears to accept the position of the Rambam (Ibid.). The Rosh (Sheilos U'Teshuvos HaRosh Klal 15 Siman 8 ) actually defines a person for whom Toraso Umnoso as one who has work, but makes it of secondary importance, while the Shulchan Aruch (Ibid. 243:2) rules that one who works in order to support himself (See Ibid. in Shach Sif Katan 7) but learns Torah whenever he is not busy with his work still has the status of one for whom Toraso Umnoso. The Perishah, in his commentary on the Tur (Orach Chaim Siman 106 Ot 5 ) distinguishes between different definitions of the concept of Toraso Umnoso. The Maharsha (Chidushei Aggados L'Kiddushin 30b s.v. Im Ishah) writes that even one who learns Torah all the time must have some work; Rav Yaakov Emden, in his Lechem Shomayim on Pirkei Avos (1:10) concurs. Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch (to Beresheis 48:3) writes that when Jews involve themselves in many different professions, the message is shown clearly that Torah applies to all, regardless of one's calling or talent.

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/th.....shtml



eilu ve'eilu...
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 15 2006, 1:48 pm
nothing about eilu v'eilu here since all the points fit together nicely, nothing contradictory about them

here's an example to illustrate what I mean:

Galus is bad, right? Galus is because of our sins.

Does that contradict the fact that Galus brings out the power of mesirus nefesh? No. Since everything that Hashem does is good, even those seemingly negative things are good too.

Another example. Poverty. Poverty is bad, right? When Moshiach comes, delicacies will be as common as dust, so until that happens poverty is no good. Does this contradict the fact that Chazal say to be careful with the children of the poor because Torah scholars come from them? No. Since within the seemingly negative quality of poverty, lies something very good.

So too with work. Work has many fine qualities to it as is proven from the statements you quoted (thanks for fine quotes). Yet, like everything else in life, if it is not done for the sake of heaven, but for one's own selfish purposes, uh oh ...
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 16 2006, 9:36 am
Quote:
Yet, like everything else in life, if it is not done for the sake of heaven, but for one's own selfish purposes, uh oh ...


Eh, this goes back to the other thread on pursuit of pleasure. Motek, I sure hope you eat dessert for the sake of heaven and not because you enjoy it, for you own selfish purpose.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 7:58 pm
Motek wrote:


So who do admire more - the brilliant rosh yeshiva or the brilliant physicist?



Both, but for different reasons. As for the "mix" of both, it's great as long as it doesn't mean neglecting both...
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