The Nisayon of Struggling to Pay Tuition

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 12:01 pm

GR wrote:

There are lots of people living frugally and still can't afford tuition. I don't think moving to Israel would be a practical trade-off. Maybe more practical if I didn't see Israel being negotiated away but that's a different story.

GR don't believe everything in the news. If we did, we'd believe that every American is in big trouble financially and the whole economy is falling apart! News is hype. Talk to people living the real life to find out where it's at. If more and more people came here and voted, maybe we could oust the resha'im supposedly running the country (to the ground) and make a statement. While people abroad tsk tsk and say they can't move here because... well, that doesn't help at all. What if Hashem is making it difficult for many many Jews in the U.S. to say: look, I am going to make it hard here and you have a choice: go live a holy life where it counts. Over here - its over. What if? Don't we read the Nevi'im about how Bnai Yisrael never heeded the signs and warnings? Have we changed so little?

tovarena

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 12:03 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

ok, about the ulpan, first of all, I know MANY MANY MANY MANY people who come here and NEVER EVER learn the language and they do just fine with jobs in their native tongue or they get around it, so again, to me, the ulpan thing is a VERY POOR "excuse" for not trying to come live here.

I don't think so at all. So they never learnt Hebrew. What did they do for a living? What industry were they working in? It DOES NOT transfer to all careers or industries. DH and I are both programmers and are B'EH, hoping to make aliyah. But we have been told, over and over again by many different people in many different agencies, that we will not be able to get good jobs in Israel as programmers unless we are close to FLUENT. Why? Because while it may not be strictly necessary to do the job (after all, programming languages themselves are in English), it's absolutely necessary for meetings, documentations, social interaction, etc. So I could absolutely understand why someone who, for whatever reason, CANNOT learn Hebrew would shy away from making aliyah. And I don't think one can judge someone else's "escuses" for not going (as if they need to apologize).

shabbatiscoming wrote:

to be more flexible???????? dont you t hink that everybody has some degree of flexibility in them?

Maybe so, but certainly not everyone has enough to make that leap. I certainly know people that any deviation from their normal routines throws them for a loop. And changing countries happens to be an extraordinarily big loop.

Tamiri wrote:

But I think the OP brought up a good point, and it's one our family pondered for a while.

It is an excellent question she brought up. And I think each one of us may come up with unique answers. For you the answer was aliyah. For some, it may be as mentioned previously to learn to appreciate what we do have - be that a quality education for our children or possibly even to appreciate the children themselves and the sacrifices we make for them. For others, the point of this nisayon may be to teach them creativity in problem solving - whether it's learning how to get by on less, or maybe to get involved with our children's institutions to figure out a way to lighten the burden for everyone. Or maybe some combination of all the above.

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 12:16 pm

Quote:

GR don't believe everything in the news.

here you're right

Quote:

If more and more people came here and voted, maybe we could oust the resha'im supposedly running the country (to the ground) and make a statement.

right too

Quote:

What if Hashem is making it difficult for many many Jews in the U.S. to say: look, I am going to make it hard here and you have a choice: go live a holy life where it counts.

No. Those who have it easy are the traditional. 2 kids, huge degrees, good jobs, no tuition since public school but still very close ties to the community, generally preventing mixed marriage.
Is that a sign? I doubt it.

We could also say all the terrorism (yes it's all around the world, but mainly in Israel for Jews) is a sign that G-d doesn't want us there/to have a country. I'm SURE some believe it. I don't.

gryp

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 1:24 pm

Tamiri wrote:

GR wrote:

Tamiri, this is not even "the news." This is part of history. When I hear people in the higher-ups of gov't talking about the "good old days of Rabin" when peace was almost reached and how they yearn they had another chance for that, I'm simply nauseous.
When I see the army given orders that contradict any ounce of sense and they carry it out, I'm beyond nauseous.
When I see people voting in people who will give away their very house, my head spins.
I know I can never live in such a state. I'd go crazy.
It wouldn't be demanding flexibility for me to adapt to such a situation, it would be demanding insanity.

Second point: let's say I'm a terrific high school teacher and extremely bad at learning new languages. A teacher can not walk into a classroom full of Israelis and not speak the language extremely fluently. You can't run a classroom without the power of speech. Flexibility in this scenario would mean I'd have to find a different job, probably lower paying. Would that be worth the move? Who knows. Maybe yes, maybe not, but you don't move across the ocean on shaky circumstances. Chances are you'd come running right back.

Third point: As we all know, Israeli society is fit into rigid boxes. I personally am not willing to be flexible and live in such an atmosphere. I can't do it, I'm too free-spirited and too rebellious.

I love the land but not the country, or State, rather. So I live like a pauper here and don't expect not to.

amother

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 3:10 pm

GR wrote:

Getting to the point, I think tuition is getting impossible to pay. I have 2 kids, one kindergarten, and one preschool home this year. I just couldn't afford it. I live in an community where EVERYONE sends their kids to school starting at age 3. I get lots of stares and people questioning my motive. It's frustrating and I have a real disliking for the Rabbis' that run the school my other 3 children go to. All these Rabbis the meanwhile get up on shabbos and declare, "No child is left behind every Jewish child deserves a Jewish education." I guess they don't practice what they preach.I don't know what the future entails for the rest of my children. I am considered "Very frum" however, I don't know what the future holds for me. I often wonder if one day my kids will have to go to public school because I can't afford tuition. I'm sorry but I am not willing to forclose on my house to pay tuition. This year I was almost on the verge of sending them to public school. I just feel to overwhelmed/stressed to homeschool and there is no other option for me.....IT's FRUSTRATING!

freidasima

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 4:19 pm

btMOMofFFBs let me try to answer your question.
There is absolutely nothing positive in my opinion about the nisayon to struggling to pay tuition. Nothing good to gain from it, nothing good to be learned from it.
I don't think that everyone is meant to struggle. I don't think that every Jew is meant to live in EY.

I do think however that there are a lot of greedy people out there (not us, not you, not the people on this thread) who are making a lot of money out of other Jews. Lots and lots and lots of profit. I don't know if it is in the field of education, but certainly in various kosher products, meats and other such things. No need to write more, it's chodesh Elul and I've said enough.

If a bunch of Jews don't get together, a large enough bunch, to boycott whatever is out of sight, it will never change. It's economics, the basics of a market, supply and demand. If there is no demand it will change. But who can do it? Who has the guts to try to change such things? there are always those who can pay, there are always those who won't buck the system and there are always those who just don't have the strength after everything else to fight the system even if they want to.

There is nothing good to learn except that people are greedy. there should not be such a terrible nisoyon to pay for a decent jewish and secular education in the 21st century in the western world. Anywhere. There is nothing good about suffering, there is nothing good about poverty, there is nothing good about a "simple lifestyle" and there is nothing good about nisyonos of such kinds.

Anyone who says different is trying to harness so called religion to perpetuate a sinful situation.

mandksima

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 4:36 pm

freidasima wrote:

This train of thought can definitely be extended to the other things that Jews are forced to spend on because of societal pressures of the modern day such as wedding costs over the basics, buying an apartment/new furniture for chattan and kallah, supporting kollel for years on end so daughter has a chance for a shidduch, etc. Like you said, if enough really frum, really influential, really top rabbeim got up and said, enough is enough, and changed things, there would be a chance of change. Without it, prices escalate and only the wealthy are left living life normally. We are forcing the middle class out of existance with all of these high costs. Soon there will only be poverty stricken and the highest elite. I believe only Moshiach can change things now...

I don't know if I agree fully with the greed being the reason for all of this, I think jealousy is more like it. People want to be like their wealthy neighbors and spend more than necessary, then everyone else does. You see it clearly with fancy houses, new model cars, gourmet food, vacations and clothes, etc but it also applies to our education. People want their schools to be fancy and a lot of money is wasted on appearances and over the top salaries for principals/tenure teachers. The people who can't afford it are paying for things they don't need. I worked in the accounting area of a school - there was a lot of waste.

ora_43

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 5:41 pm

cassandra wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

It's not only people wanting more gashmius in their own lives, it's also parents expecting the schools to be on a higher level of gashmius.

My sons study in a private cheder, not government funded. The building is not so new, there really isn't enough area for playing in (each class gets one day a week on the roof where they have more space, in turn). Food is sent from home. They learn limudei kodesh and the limudei chol is math, Ivrit, some history, geography and science. No labs. No computers. No fancy furnishings. The classes are also bigger than what I hear in America (which is not davka a good thing). .

I think what you call "high level of gashmius" others might call "valuing secular education" which isn't gashmius at all. If I didn't value secular education I could send my child to school in Boro Park and pay a quarter of the tuition I pay now.

But why is the secular education provided at frum schools so expensive? I'm pretty sure my public school didn't spend anywhere near the difference between the cost of an MO high school and the cost of a chassidish high school per student.

btMOMtoFFBs

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 7:35 pm

Freidas and MandK's, I think its miguided to blame others for our troubles, financial or otherwise. Our income for the year is decreed on Rosh Hashana -- just a few days from now. Your line of thought just causes us to start thinking badly about each other. Leave the Judging up to Hashem, and the rest of us should just worry about ourselves, daven for what we want and do our hishtadlus.

As far as wedding costs and other expenses of Jewish life, the Rabbonim and Jewish lay leadership are starting to address this. Here is Baltimore I have been impressed that at the 5 weddings I attended this past summer, there were no extras. Candle arrangements instead of flowers on the table (or with minimal flowers). A one man band at one chasuna. No liquor or open bar at another. These messages of avoiding excessive spending are starting to trickle down, slowly.... slowly...

mimivan

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 7:44 pm

Quote:

Second point: let's say I'm a terrific high school teacher and extremely bad at learning new languages. A teacher can not walk into a classroom full of Israelis and not speak the language extremely fluently. You can't run a classroom without the power of speech. Flexibility in this scenario would mean I'd have to find a different job, probably lower paying. Would that be worth the move? Who knows. Maybe yes, maybe not, but you don't move across the ocean on shaky circumstances. Chances are you'd come running right back.

Third point: As we all know, Israeli society is fit into rigid boxes. I personally am not willing to be flexible and live in such an atmosphere. I can't do it, I'm too free-spirited and too rebellious.

I love the land but not the country, or State, rather. So I live like a pauper here and don't expect not to.

[/quote]
GR...
your second point: Most of the Anglo teachers here I know teach English. So they teach in English but they realy should be able to understand Hebrew, but their Hebrew doesn't have to be fantastic since they are teaching in their own language. There is a demand for English teachers here..

third..Well, I'm free spirited and rebellious and I live here... but we live in a very mixed community and I don't have much to do with the "powers that be" where I live. Anyone can find their niche here.

But if you are happy in CH, our Rebbe's shechuna...gezunteheit!

Last edited by mimivan on Thu, Sep 25 2008, 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

gryp

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 8:01 pm

mimivan wrote:

Quote:

GR...
your second point: Most of the Anglo teachers here I know teach English. So they teach in English but they realy should be able to understand Hebrew, but their Hebrew doesn't have to be fantastic since they are teaching in their own language. There is a demand for English teachers here..

third..Well, I'm free spirited and rebellious and I live here... but we live in a very mixed community and I don't have much to do with the "powers that be" where I live. Anyone can find their niche here.

But if you are happy in CH, our Rebbe's shechuna...gezunteheit![/quote]
I said "Let's say...," mimivan. Smile

I'm not a high school teacher, although I guess I could be if I tried, but I'm pretty okay with Ivrit. In my theoretical situation, let's say my expertise is in teaching math or science, but not in teaching English. It wouldn't work out. I mean, I once learned CPR in Hebrew and learning all the medical terms or even the simple words like "bandaid" was ridiculous. It was more memorization than CPR.
About the third point, I know that once you need a school for your kids, you need to start fitting into preconceived boxes. Here they make rules and no one cares to follow them but no one is breathing down anybody's neck. I don't think I'd be able to handle what goes on in Israel. I spent a year there and I saw plenty of what turned me off from living there, although I always wanted to beforehand.

mimivan

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 8:47 pm

GR..

my mashpia sends her kids to different kinds of schools. One goes to Chabad, one is going to Bobov, one is going to Chassidishe Bais Yaakov...not everyone would agree with this mixing and want to be 100% loyal to particular schools. But her way of thinkingis chinuch comes before labels, and the family is 100% Lubavitch at home, but send there kids where they will function the best (as long as the schools are of a certain kind).

It isn't easy, but possible, to think outside of the box here. We recently had to make a heart-wrenching decision about chinuch with the permission of a mashpia and consulting the Rebbe's letters about the issue. It really is possible to be "different" here...but it takes some work and it takes knowing how to deal with flak (and b'h my dh is Israeli for this reason...he can handle anyone here) if you go against the grain. (I'm not talking about being different for the sake of being different...but having to deal with circumstances that makes one different)

Just to clarify that it seems conformist but a few can dare to be different with some effort.

freidasima

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 1:41 am

btMOMtoFFBs, what you are writing may sound nice religiously but it is a copout.
Using religion and determinism to excuse things that happen is a well known method of people who raise prices out of greed and what the market will bear knowing that they are providing a service that people can't live without - I.e. kosher food - without taking into account the large numbers of Jews who won't be able to afford to pay.

I have a good secular friend here in EY whose father taught him as a child "when someone starts talking to you about G-d, watch your pockets".

Unfortunately there is some truth in what looks like a basically antireligious statement.

The fact that the Ribono shel olam decides that someone's income will be X during a year to come doesn't mean that that income has to be earned by milking other people. The Ribono shel olam doesn't decide HOW that income will be earned, sure you can go and rob a bank if you want. But that doesn't excuse the fact that there is a tremendous amount of greed in the Jewish world. Greed, jealousy and a captive market and audience.

How many people who can't afford it shell out for X at a chasuneh so that their other kids will get decent shidduchim? It's looked at as an "investment". Sure, you invest your life to "buy" a chossen for your daughter, you invest your life and pay for it in order to be part of a community and provide your children with what you need to do to have them "get ahead".

Someone has to break this vicious cycle and with all due credit to the rabbonim who have come up recently and less recently with sumptuary laws of all kinds, they are NOT being adhered to across the board because everyone knows that without the sceptre of a real "cherem" being held over a persons head, so what, so they spent more, who is really going to do something about it. Anyone NOT going to give him an aliya? Is an entire shul about to walk out when he walks in to daven? THAT's CHEREM.

Do you think that there is a real possibility for the ENTIRE KOSHER COMMUNITY in the USA to go meatless for three or four months? There was, as my grandmother taught me, a kosher meat boycott in America in the beginning of the 20th century as the prices were so high and it worked. NO one bought meat. And the prices went down.

How many people are willing to take their kids out of school and see the prices go down? But EVERYONE has to do it, there has to be solidarity between rich and poor and in between. And parents will have to sacrifice and find alternative frameworks for their children until it works. That means working parents will be in a terrible bind, possibly for months. If it works it will pay off in spades but who today has the guts to do it?

No one.
So keep complaining.
There is a great saying in Hebrew. "Hakelavim novchim vehashayara overet". The dogs keep barking and the carvan keeps passing by.

mandksima

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 2:26 am

freidasima wrote:

Basically what I was going to reply. I think your income has nothing to do with the extraordinary prices for today's living. I'm not blaming for blaming's sake. If there is a problem that is fixable, let's try to fix it, rather than live with it and continue to complain. Freidasima is right on the ball with the example of kosher meat. It can be done but there is no one influential enough starting a boycott.

I think Hashem would prefer us to need less extras (non-necessities for life) than overcome our nisayon for high tuitions. We have made this our own nisayon. You can undo the nisayon for the high costs of weddings and the need to provide for a chattan and kallah if you want to. It has to be done as a group effort, of course. I am blaming the build-up over our history.

I don't mean this line of thought to make people start thinking badly of one another. We should feel ashamed of our time's troubles that we brought upon ourselves. I think it is this generation's nisayon to overcome. We should all try to work on this together rather than say everyone should just worry about yourself and daven that it should be okay for your own family.

freidasima

Fri, Sep 26 2008, 3:32 am

Another thing to add regarding "thinking badly of one another".

There is no chiyuv to think well of a Jew who is doing wrong. Not necessarily "evil" but wrong. WE are commanded "hochayach tochiyach et amitecha" when we see wrong.

And there is a lot of wrong in the Jewish world today. And not only zaddikim are permitted to point it out otherwise it will never get pointed out.

So let's not get all mealy mouthed about this and say "oy va'voy we can't say anything bad about any Jew" because then lots of real evil (child molesting, physical abuse, chillul Hashem things) will go unreported or unpunished because "it's chodesh Elul and we shouldn't say anything that would make us think bad of any Jew".

Feet on the ground ladies, even if we want our heads to reach heavenward!