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Gifted Children



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amother


 

Post Sat, Jan 07 2006, 9:40 pm
Does anyone have experience with a gifted child? How did you get them tested - did you use the public school system? Did you make any changes to the Yeshiva curriculum? Did you tell the school? How did they grow socially? Any ideas for stimulating puzzles/games...
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Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 07 2006, 10:54 pm
Quote:
Did you make any changes to the Yeshiva curriculum?


Insert laughing icon here. This is very difficult to do. I have a lot to say on this subject but not much time now. You have to do your own curriculum at home. There are a lot of good books, websites, sources. Get an encyclopedia. Write more about your situation. I'll write more later.
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 07 2006, 11:44 pm
The only thing I would say is DON'T SKIP THEM AHEAD. The social skills they aquire at a young age cannot be replaced by the advanced learning they get in higher grades. Supplement their learning at home if the child needs it.
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Chani




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 07 2006, 11:56 pm
I don't know - I think it depends on the child. I skipped a year in elementary and then went to college after 11th grade so basically missed two years. I remember socially that things were better after skipping the elementary grade. Did much better with older classmates.
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 2:46 am
I'm with Chani on that. In my case, I skipped but went back a few years later because it wasn't working socially (I was still youngest in my class, but it was much better).

I'd try to enhance what they're already learning (I.e. you're learning the Akeida in Chumash with just Rashi? Here, let's start to teach you some Ohr HaChaim. You're learning about Pesach? Let's try to tackle it directly in the Shulchan Aruch). DON'T teach ahead Pesukim, because then they'll be bored in class!

Also be sure that they know how not to brag about their knowledge- teachers don't mind if the kids know more, but hate it if they're always interrupting with their own additions or preventing other kids from answering. Students also will resent a classmate who brags that they're smarter.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 3:06 am
Mandy wrote:
Quote:
Did you make any changes to the Yeshiva curriculum?


Insert laughing icon here. This is very difficult to do. I have a lot to say on this subject but not much time now. You have to do your own curriculum at home. There are a lot of good books, websites, sources. Get an encyclopedia. Write more about your situation. I'll write more later.


Well Mandy, what do you know? I guess we do agree about something! Tongue Out I have something to add: If your child is gifted start supplementing now, rather than later. Because if you don't, they will acclimate to being average before long. You will wonder why you ever thought the child was gifted.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:02 am
The Tolna Rebbe, Rabbi Weinberg of Eretz Yisrael, considered an expert in chinuch related:

Quote:
"A few years ago, I summoned a group of 8th grade teachers and asked them to list the names of their most talented students, those talmidim who in another 15 years would be great Torah scholars. I received lists from six top teachers. I looked at the lists 5 years later. The boys were already 18 years old. Our of the entire combined list (20 names), just one boy, just one, was considered outstanding in his yeshiva. As for the rest: some are not in yeshiva at all; some are considered mediocre or worse."


burn-out is an especially prevalent problem in Israel

in America, the talmidim are far behind their Israeli counterparts in elementary and high school (probably because of the limudei chol) but post high school American bachurim 'get into learning' and then often surpass the Israeli bachurim

I'd love to know more about the boys on the lists. What really happened there? Why was so much promise held out in 8th grade and then these kids fizzled? And what was different about the one who was considered outstanding?
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:12 am
Motek, my husband always makes the same point. He says you can tell in yeshiva which boys went to yeshiva ketana and which boys went to school. As a general rule (of course there are exceptions) the yeshiva ketana boys experience a much higher rate of burn out. But the school boys come, often knowing they'll only be there for a couple of years, and do very well, many times staying many years.

This is especially true for the yeshiva ketana boys that know they will stay in yeshiva until they get engaged. There is no urgency for them to learn, because they will know they will be yeshiva for years.
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 08 2006, 1:11 pm
From my experience I think I would not test them or involve the yeshiva at all. I'd keep them where they are placed age wise and just provide plenty of academic stimulation outside of school. Maybe I'd choose a school that had a more advanced curriculum . University games makes many. Also the mensa website lists games and puzzles. You can enroll them in classes for children sometimes offered in different universities or by different groups.
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juggler




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2006, 5:14 am
I have a number of gifted siblings and a very gifted child ka"h whom I homeschool (there is no appropriate school where I live). From experience homeschooling a gifted child, my advice is that if you have a choice, don't do it. To properly stimulate a gifted child takes a LOT of prep time whereas if the child would be in school, you can concentrate on supplementing and working with the individual teacher to address your child's needs. Also, often being associated with a school gives you access to certain experts for advice. To homeschool a child means one on one learning, which although insures that your childs needs are addresses properly, because the child catches on quickly, there is a lot of prep involved and classes are very short leading to boredom- the worst thing for any child, much less a gifted one. Don't forget that gifted children are still usually emotionally on par with their age group, and their attention span is still limited to that of their age group. And lastly, there are many skills, social and otherwise, that can only be learned in a school or other atmosphere where there is more structure and more interaction with others. Although we as parents worry that the needs of our gifted children are not being addressed and taken advantage of, beleive me, you worry much more when the sole responsibility for their education lies on you. Watching my siblings (who went to school) it was obviously not easy for them to be in a classroom situation at all times. Some of them are out of school and still remain way above average. Going to school helped them learn the coping skills they need to deal with the average person in the world, who is still way below them in many many areas. Good Luck!! One more thing, there is a difference if the child is gifted but is okay in a regular classroom, or if the child is gifted and has a difficult time in the classroom- each of these situations require different coping methods. May we be blessed that we only have such problems!!
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amother


 

Post Tue, May 22 2007, 5:06 am
Reviving an old thread.



I, and almost all of my siblings, definitely are considered gifted. We were all tested, and all have a really high IQ, etc, etc. (Not bragging, as I don't think being gifted is really a gift- its more of a challenge than anything else.)

I was always getting bored in school. At first the teachers just gave me extra work to do in class, but it was just to occupy my time after I finished the work they gave everyone else, in half a second. So when I was in third grade, was skipped ahead a year for math. Then I ended up skipping 5th grade completely, so I was in the same class for math and other subjects. It definitely caused problems. I was the youngest in my class, was still the brightest, and had major social issues. Aside from the social issues that I had from being a gifted child (gifted children tend to be less gifted in the social arena), I had the issue that the girls in my class resented the fact that the youngest was "smarter" than they were.
I ended up always being in the highest groups in class- higher lashon, higher chumash, higher math, etc.
Still was majorly bored in class and was constantly ditching.
9th grade my parents decided to homeschool me for limudei chol, and I was in school in the morning for limudei kodesh. During that year, I learned the most that I learned at any year of my life. I got credit through a school, and ended up learning 2 years worth of math, 2 years worth of science, 4 years worth of english, 1 year of health, 1 year of social studies, in addition to a bunch of enrichment things that weren't neccesary for school.
Then for tenth grade I went back to my school- was with my class for limudei kodesh, some limudei chol- I had skipped geometry when learning math, so joined my class for a class in geometry. I learned physics with the older grades. Had english and art and music with my class. And had lots of free periods when my classmates learned subjects that I already completed. And then at home in the evenings, I learned pre-calculus and american history and art and spanish on a charter school online.
That was my last year in a jewish school. I pretty much had finished every credit I needed to graduate, aside from one subject, so I enrolled in an online charter school, took 4 classes- their bare minimum, and meanwhile attended college as a high school student. Took four classes a semester, got both college and high school credit for it.
So I ended up officially graduating from high school at age 16, but that last year in high school didn;t count much, because I was in college.


I had such a messed up education because I was gifted.
I really wish there were a gifted school for frum kids, because gifted kids need a special school, or at least special classes for them. Supplementing what the teacher is teaching the rest of the class could possibly work, so long as the teacher let the kid do this in class. Otherwise the gifted kids either act up in class because they're bored, or they ditch. Unfortunately, most teachers don't want to do this extra work.
And for those who say gifted kids can do fine in a regular school, without any changes in the curriculum, they'd just have it easier, I beg to differ. Gifted kids have the highest rate of suicide, dropping out, and rebelliousness, and well as massive social issues. These kids also need to be taught in a different method. (I did a whole huge report on gifted kids for a college class of mine, so this isn't just my own observations.) If you put a truly gifted kid in a regular class, it is so detrimental.
I really wanted to become a teacher for gifted kids, but it didn't end up happening.
Just watch- my kids iy'h are probably also gonna be gifted. If its a boy, I'll just send him to a good yeshiva, because bichavrusa, they're able to excell much better.
If I have a gifted girl, I'll probably just homeschool. Unless teachers are really willing to work with me and supplement the class material.

Or maybe, just one day, I'll open a new school here.
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healthymama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 22 2007, 12:47 pm
Quote:
Or maybe, just one day, I'll open a new school here.


That would be great. Sign us up, wherever you are, we will be your first customers.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 22 2007, 1:06 pm
I was one year ahead and everything went well socially... B'H I skipped a class, the boredom was unbearable (and it got a bit better after).
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Mama Shifra




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 25 2007, 10:38 am
amother wrote:
9th grade my parents decided to homeschool me for limudei chol, and I was in school in the morning for limudei kodesh. During that year, I learned the most that I learned at any year of my life. I got credit through a school, and ended up learning 2 years worth of math, 2 years worth of science, 4 years worth of english, 1 year of health, 1 year of social studies, in addition to a bunch of enrichment things that weren't neccesary for school.

That was my last year in a jewish school. I pretty much had finished every credit I needed to graduate, aside from one subject, so I enrolled in an online charter school, took 4 classes- their bare minimum, and meanwhile attended college as a high school student. Took four classes a semester, got both college and high school credit for it.
So I ended up officially graduating from high school at age 16, but that last year in high school didn;t count much, because I was in college.


Amother--

I want to ask you if you went to seminary. My husband and I are not happy with our daughter's school here, and there is only one Jewish all-girls school here in town. We don't feel comfortable sending her out of town for high school so we are considering sending her to the school for some Limudai Kodesh classes and having her do correspondence courses for Limudai Chol. Because she would not fulfill all the requirements for graduation at that school, her diploma would have to come from the correspondence school. So we are worried that she will not be accepted to seminary because of that. If you did go to seminary, did they give you a hard time because your credits were not from a frum school?

Thanks,
Shifra
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amother


 

Post Sat, May 26 2007, 4:10 pm
Mama Shifra wrote:
amother wrote:
9th grade my parents decided to homeschool me for limudei chol, and I was in school in the morning for limudei kodesh. During that year, I learned the most that I learned at any year of my life. I got credit through a school, and ended up learning 2 years worth of math, 2 years worth of science, 4 years worth of english, 1 year of health, 1 year of social studies, in addition to a bunch of enrichment things that weren't neccesary for school.

That was my last year in a jewish school. I pretty much had finished every credit I needed to graduate, aside from one subject, so I enrolled in an online charter school, took 4 classes- their bare minimum, and meanwhile attended college as a high school student. Took four classes a semester, got both college and high school credit for it.
So I ended up officially graduating from high school at age 16, but that last year in high school didn;t count much, because I was in college.


Amother--

I want to ask you if you went to seminary. My husband and I are not happy with our daughter's school here, and there is only one Jewish all-girls school here in town. We don't feel comfortable sending her out of town for high school so we are considering sending her to the school for some Limudai Kodesh classes and having her do correspondence courses for Limudai Chol. Because she would not fulfill all the requirements for graduation at that school, her diploma would have to come from the correspondence school. So we are worried that she will not be accepted to seminary because of that. If you did go to seminary, did they give you a hard time because your credits were not from a frum school?

Thanks,
Shifra

I went to seminary for two years. The first year was a really bad choice of a seminary- but it was the only one that would accept me because of my really young age.
Second seminary was more for baalei teshuva and people that were getting stronger in yiddishkeit- and they didn't give me issues about diploma.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 27 2007, 5:44 am
I have a tested gifted child who should now be in 6th grade by age. Because of his emotional maturity is borderline low for his age and he has not been in school for a year and a half. I got a lot of good training in how to deal with him so I'll share.

First, why he is not in school. A few years ago the schools in my area switched totally or partially to the Zilberman system which is reading repeated for most of the day with no learning for comprehension until 4th or 5th grade. for a child who remembers perfectly after 34 repetitions to have another hour to sit through is excruciating. Most children who have any mental curiosity whatsoever have difficulty with this shita.

Next, gifted is not monolithic. The gifted child is not necessarily gifted in every area. Mine, for example, is gifted long and short term memory, comprehension and other cognitive skills. He has above avg skills in art and music but not in gifted range. I once taught a child who was all of the above but most gifted in music. He would play instrumental duets with me when he was 5 yrs old, on my level (CMU conservatory). Today I have a connection with a child who was reading 400 pg books before 1st grade but is severely immature for his age due to his environment. His parents discourage him from social activity of any kind and give him literally 10 books a day because they want him to be a genius. This year in 8th grade they have removed him from school because they don't want him in yeshiva ketana where he may be influenced at all by rabbonim other than his father, who will now teach him exclusively.

I would not home school by choice. These kids are not less in need of being part of the chevra, probably they need it more because of being 'different'. There is a simple thing that any skilled teacher can do to help this child fit in. We have had differing teachers do this w/varying levels of success. The difference has been the willingness of the teacher to cooperate. This child does not need to be moved up grades. The difference has to be understood between intelligence and information. If your first grader learns Bereishit and he skips second grade he never learns Shemot. What needs to be done is for this child to be taught the exact same material on a deeper level. While the other kids are learning just Chumash have this kid find Rashi. When they add Rashi call on him to explain the difficult ones. Soon after start sending him to look up Ohr HaChaims or Rambans. Ditto Mishna. In Gemora in a yeshiva worth its salt the learning is interactive and dynamic. Nothing hinders the Gemora kop like worksheets and graded pages. This allows your child to go in his own pace. A traditional yeshiva doesn't have grades so a chavrusa can be taken from shiur gimmel.

I would stay away from any school where the social group does not value learning and intelligence.
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