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Charging money for those with no money
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:44 am
What do you do when you're providing service (in my case, a gan) for people and they arent able to pay you on time because they dont have the money, because it was a hard month or whatever?
I am stuck in this position, because I really do need the money, but we're not desperate for money for food because we do have the ability to go into minus on our account if push comes to shove.
Like, I really need the money. We've been living off rice and beans (only) for the past little bit, my husband hasnt gotten glasses that he desperately needs because we just dont have the extra couple hundred shekel to spend on glasses...
But how can I demand money from someone who pashut doesnt have it? Do I tell them that they should take out a loan so they can pay me on time? Do I make them not have money for food because I need the money?

Whats the right thing to do?
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smiley:)









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:53 am
It's a tough situation for which I don't have an answer. It's also uncomfortable on your part to need to tell a parent you need it.
Only thing I could think of for next year is to say at the outset you know situations crop up and in the past payments have not been on time from parents in previous years but you cannot accept such situations. If they sign up to your gan it means payments on time. You would like to avoid any uncomfortable situations etc.
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pinkbubbles









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:53 am
You have to push for it anyways, IMO. You can't save the world. I know that sounds mean but I had a similar issue and DH pointed that we still need to take care of ourselves. You can obviously ask for it in a nice way, but stressing you really need the money.
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smiley:)









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:55 am
Also I do think you can make some type of deadline. Like you aren't being crazy and not coming in their direction at all (though I don't think that is crazy. how someone can assume you don't need to get paid on time, I don't know...) But you also don't have to say ok pay me whenever... this month you are 3 wks late, next time 5 wks late. You can say I need it by x time. Think about it in reverse. Would you not feel weird endlessly not paying your kid's caretaker?
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Akeres Habayis









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:58 am
I would ask them can they give u some of it now,and when will they be able to pay u the rest.
ask them are they able to pay u for the following month?if the answer is they dont know,then they have to make arrangements for childcare w/someone else.as someone already said u can't save the world.
I think its ok to ask these questions.

if they dont have the money just for this month,do they have something to barter the amount(bc I live here also,I understand your problem).
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:58 am
it wasnt like that. these people gave me checks and they bounced... so I should tell them to take out a loan and pay me? I feel wrong, because we do have money for food now. the specific issue is even if we have money now, we wont be having it in the future bec circumstances have changed and we wont be making the same amount anymore even...
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BeershevaBubby









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:00 am
Then tell them that you need the payment they owe and if the next month's check also bounces you're going to have to consider not allowing the child(ren) back.
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:00 am
Akeres Habayis wrote:
I would ask them can they give u some of it now,and when will they be able to pay u the rest.
ask them are they able to pay u for the following month?if the answer is they dont know,then they have to make arrangements for childcare w/someone else.as someone already said u can't save the world.
I think its ok to ask these questions.

if they dont have the money just for this month,do they have something to barter the amount(bc I live here also,I understand your problem).
what do you mean, barter the amount?
like I'm getting annoyed that these people that arent able to pay have cars... I dont have a car bec its beyond my budget, and then these people with cars arent paying me because they dont have the money...
they say its just an issue this month bec of the chagim, etc... but its a tough month for all of us...
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:01 am
YESHASettler wrote:
Then tell them that you need the payment they owe and if the next month's check also bounces you're going to have to consider not allowing the child(ren) back.
I wouldnt say that. why? because I barely have enough kids to begin with, I dont need to minimize my income even more. so even if they dont pay on time one month or two, it still pays for me to have them because its still an extra kid bringing in money most of the time...
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BeershevaBubby









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:06 am
Seraph wrote:
YESHASettler wrote:
Then tell them that you need the payment they owe and if the next month's check also bounces you're going to have to consider not allowing the child(ren) back.
I wouldnt say that. why? because I barely have enough kids to begin with, I dont need to minimize my income even more. so even if they dont pay on time one month or two, it still pays for me to have them because its still an extra kid bringing in money most of the time...


So then what are you asking?

You say in your first post they 'pashut' don't have the money and in the next one you sound resentful because well, they have a car and you don't. And you're wondering about working 'for free' but you can't get rid of the kids because you have few enough as it is.

So what are you asking exactly?

What should you do? Ask for your money and hope they eventually give it to you seems to be the only solution since you're not willing to threaten them with not accepting their child any more. Until then, you work for free.
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shalhevet









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:09 am
You have to insist on it. You are not running a tzedaka, and you never claimed to be. The mother sending the child has to take this into account. No one forced her to send him/her.

Something else - I have learned in life, that the fact people come crying and telling you they have no money does not necessarily correspond to if they are better/ worse off than anyone else. Sometimes the people who are the worst off feel morally/ halachically obliged to pay you (as they should) and don't buy necessary food, clothing etc in order to pay. And others used up their money on a new outfit for yomtov they couldn't afford, and now haven't got anything left to pay you. And who says they are worse off than you are? Let one, one month, and you can close your gan.

If this family haven't got the money, let them go and borrow it from someone able to lend it to them - a friend, a relative, a gemach. If not - the child leaves the gan. Sorry, I used to be naive too. (I am not trying to be mean, just to tell you I have seen it all, among frum people too.) You will probably discover that if you push them, they will pay you (as they do to anyone who demands it and they have no choice). Or they will take their child out and you can take someone who pays instead.

I will tell you a story. In my building no one is rich. Some are in kolel, some have very large families (all kinds, chassidim, litvish, sephardim). When I was va'ad habayit, there were 5 families who always paid on time, 4 who paid after a kvetch, and 1 who always said they don't have the money/ they can't pay etc etc. So what happened? The other 9 families basically became a gemach for this 1 family, since we had to pay more so that there would be money in the kuppa for bills. I can assure you that the other 9 families were not in a financial position to do so. Meanwhile, family 10 were subscribed to a daily paper, the father smokes etc. (I am no longer VB so I don't know what happens now.)
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shalhevet









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:14 am
Seraph wrote:
Akeres Habayis wrote:
I would ask them can they give u some of it now,and when will they be able to pay u the rest.
ask them are they able to pay u for the following month?if the answer is they dont know,then they have to make arrangements for childcare w/someone else.as someone already said u can't save the world.
I think its ok to ask these questions.

if they dont have the money just for this month,do they have something to barter the amount(bc I live here also,I understand your problem).
what do you mean, barter the amount?
like I'm getting annoyed that these people that arent able to pay have cars... I dont have a car bec its beyond my budget, and then these people with cars arent paying me because they dont have the money...
they say its just an issue this month bec of the chagim, etc... but its a tough month for all of us...


Wow, they are right. It's really hard when the chagim suddenly turn up unexpectedly.

(And this month is hard, because we have to buy winter clothing. In Kislev there are heating costs. And in Teves more heating costs. In Shevat school trips. In Adar Purim. Nissan, well, what can I say?..)

Seraph, if you don't stand firm now, they will be telling you sob stories all year.
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ora_43









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:15 am
It depends why they don't have money. If it's a good, temporary reason (house just burned down, three kids got married in one month, illness or death, etc) I'd let it slide for a while. If they regularly don't have money, you'll need to set rules.

Maybe you could make a deal like, for those who pay by the 5th of the month it's 2,000 shekels, for those who pay after the 5th it's 2,100. Some small fine for paying late that would encourage people to come up with the money on time. Then only those who really don't have would pay late (and hopefully have a small taste of what it's like to lose money b/c they didn't plan ahead, instead of you being the only one suffering), those who don't mind the fine will pay late and you'll have an extra 100 shekels, and those who just didn't bother making a serious effort to pay might decide to start doing so.

Remember, it's not a volunteer service. If you want to volunteer, you can set aside one slot for a family that needs daycare and can't afford it, but set limits. For your sake and your family's sake you can't let people take advantage of you.

And a kid whose parents regularly don't pay can be worse than nothing from the ganenet's perspective, because every kid in the gan is taking time and energy to care for, and takes a slot that could otherwise be offered to someone who's willing to pay.
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:17 am
YESHASettler wrote:
Seraph wrote:
YESHASettler wrote:
Then tell them that you need the payment they owe and if the next month's check also bounces you're going to have to consider not allowing the child(ren) back.
I wouldnt say that. why? because I barely have enough kids to begin with, I dont need to minimize my income even more. so even if they dont pay on time one month or two, it still pays for me to have them because its still an extra kid bringing in money most of the time...


So then what are you asking?

You say in your first post they 'pashut' don't have the money and in the next one you sound resentful because well, they have a car and you don't. And you're wondering about working 'for free' but you can't get rid of the kids because you have few enough as it is.

So what are you asking exactly?

What should you do? Ask for your money and hope they eventually give it to you seems to be the only solution since you're not willing to threaten them with not accepting their child any more. Until then, you work for free.
I'm saying they pashut dont have the money, and the proof of that is their checks bounced. aka no money in the account. yes, I'm resentful that these people with no money are living a more expensive life than me, at least on the outside.
I'm saying I wouldnt threaten that I would kick out the kid bec that would just make me worse off.
I can demand the money, but I wasnt sure if I should because I feel bad for these people. so I should tell them "I'm sorry, I need the money, if you need to borrow from someone to pay, do that, but I need the money..."?
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Aidelmom









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:17 am
be careful of ribis though
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:18 am
ora_43 wrote:
It depends why they don't have money. If it's a good, temporary reason (house just burned down, three kids got married in one month, illness or death, etc) I'd let it slide for a while. If they regularly don't have money, you'll need to set rules.

Maybe you could make a deal like, for those who pay by the 5th of the month it's 2,000 shekels, for those who pay after the 5th it's 2,100.
that probably would be assur bec of ribis.
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Seraph









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:19 am
ora_43 wrote:

And a kid whose parents regularly don't pay can be worse than nothing from the ganenet's perspective, because every kid in the gan is taking time and energy to care for, and takes a slot that could otherwise be offered to someone who's willing to pay.
halevai they were taking up a slot. I got room for 3 more kids before I worry about "slots being taken up"...
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BeershevaBubby









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:20 am
Seraph wrote:
I'm saying I wouldnt threaten that I would kick out the kid bec that would just make me worse off.
I can demand the money, but I wasnt sure if I should because I feel bad for these people. so I should tell them "I'm sorry, I need the money, if you need to borrow from someone to pay, do that, but I need the money..."?


But right now you're paying for supplies and food for a child that's not bringing you any income. So by keeping this kid in your gan, you ARE actually worse off.

And yes, you should tell them that.
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pinkbubbles









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:27 am
Seraph wrote:
ora_43 wrote:
It depends why they don't have money. If it's a good, temporary reason (house just burned down, three kids got married in one month, illness or death, etc) I'd let it slide for a while. If they regularly don't have money, you'll need to set rules.

Maybe you could make a deal like, for those who pay by the 5th of the month it's 2,000 shekels, for those who pay after the 5th it's 2,100.
that probably would be assur bec of ribis.


how come this is ribis? its not a loan.
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shalhevet









  


Post  Fri, Nov 07 2008, 6:30 am
Seraph wrote:
ora_43 wrote:

And a kid whose parents regularly don't pay can be worse than nothing from the ganenet's perspective, because every kid in the gan is taking time and energy to care for, and takes a slot that could otherwise be offered to someone who's willing to pay.
halevai they were taking up a slot. I got room for 3 more kids before I worry about "slots being taken up"...


iy"H next year people will know you and you will have all the slots taken. But how you deal with the money side will decide for the future.

And Yesha is right - this child needs supplies etc.

I'm just so mad about this. I know it so well. There are people with no conscience who just try and not pay those who don't push it. If you can't afford it - don't send your child to gan. THEY are the ones breaking halacha - why are you ashamed to ask for what you honestly earned (even if you were a millionaire)? Believe me, there is no correlation to how much money people have and if they pay others on time. There are people who have nothing, who wouldn't dream of not paying someone on time. If they don't have, they don't use your services.
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