Charging money for those with no money

Seraph

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:30 am

pinkbubbles wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

It depends why they don't have money. If it's a good, temporary reason (house just burned down, three kids got married in one month, illness or death, etc) I'd let it slide for a while. If they regularly don't have money, you'll need to set rules.

Maybe you could make a deal like, for those who pay by the 5th of the month it's 2,000 shekels, for those who pay after the 5th it's 2,100.

that probably would be assur bec of ribis.

how come this is ribis? its not a loan.

all I know is that when I wanted to give an early bird special for signing up for gan early, I was told that it is ribis, and I would need a heter iska to get around it, etc...

shalhevet

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:31 am

pinkbubbles wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

that probably would be assur bec of ribis.

how come this is ribis? its not a loan.

It is most definitely ribbis. Where did you learn ribbis only applies to loans?

There is a way to get around it - check with a rav for details. You make a price, and then give a discount if someone pays early (anyway, you can't do it this year, because you already fixed the price.)

Seraph

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:32 am

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

And a kid whose parents regularly don't pay can be worse than nothing from the ganenet's perspective, because every kid in the gan is taking time and energy to care for, and takes a slot that could otherwise be offered to someone who's willing to pay.

halevai they were taking up a slot. I got room for 3 more kids before I worry about "slots being taken up"...

iy"H next year people will know you and you will have all the slots taken. But how you deal with the money side will decide for the future.

And Yesha is right - this child needs supplies etc.

I'm just so mad about this. I know it so well. There are people with no conscience who just try and not pay those who don't push it. If you can't afford it - don't send your child to gan. THEY are the ones breaking halacha - why are you ashamed to ask for what you honestly earned (even if you were a millionaire)? Believe me, there is no correlation to how much money people have and if they pay others on time. There are people who have nothing, who wouldn't dream of not paying someone on time. If they don't have, they don't use your services.

right, but the worst thing is, this person said they could take out a loan to pay me, if neccesary. but I feel bad because she is my good friend, and I know she's going to her parents for shabbos and hasnt gone grocery shopping bec she hasnt got money. one of the issues with mixing business and friendships. I kind of feel that as a friend, I cant demand it. but you're right.
maybe I'll tell them: you have till x to get the money. And this is the last time. it cant happen again.

shalhevet

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:32 am

Seraph wrote:

pinkbubbles wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

that probably would be assur bec of ribis.

how come this is ribis? its not a loan.

all I know is that when I wanted to give an early bird special for signing up for gan early, I was told that it is ribis, and I would need a heter iska to get around it, etc...

I don't think so. Did you check with a rav? But to penalize people who pay late is ribbis.

Akeres Habayis

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:33 am

I didnt know the checks bounced(plural).I think they have to make other arrangements,until they can pay u the money.its hard for me to answer this way,but as shalhevet said,when u really dont have the money and u know u have to pay u come up w/it somehow.

u will begin to resent them for putting u in this situation(if u dont take care of it)
ask for your money NOW,give them their checks back ,they have to pay in cash every month when tuition is due.

Seraph

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:34 am

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

pinkbubbles wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

that probably would be assur bec of ribis.

how come this is ribis? its not a loan.

all I know is that when I wanted to give an early bird special for signing up for gan early, I was told that it is ribis, and I would need a heter iska to get around it, etc...

I don't think so. Did you check with a rav? But to penalize people who pay late is ribbis.

Yes. the rav was the one who said this.

HindaRochel

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:39 am

You have a few choices; ask the rav if taken the children for free qualifies as part of your maaser and deal with it that way, simply count it as tzedakah (but not part of your maaser) and go on with your life, or let them know that if they don't pay by X of the month then the children can't come any more, or if they can't pay they can work it off for you in some other way: whatever skills the husband and wife have, they can do for you in the house.

Seraph

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 3:46 am

HindaRochel wrote:

we pay way too much money to tzedaka, way more than maaser... so that wouldnt be the solution...

ora_43

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 4:22 am

Sorry if my suggestion isn't mutar. I know of schools that give a discount for paying in advance, but I guess they do it with a heter iska or something. I was thinking in the same direction, that it would be an incentive to pay on time not necessarily a punishment (and not interest that would keep adding up, just a one-time late fee).

Seraph, is this all the same people? I'm getting confused--first you said they just don't have the money, then that they have a car, then that they're eating Shabbat out etc b/c they can't afford to make Shabbat. Is this one family with odd spending priorities, or are multiple people not paying you on time?

If they give you an excuse that they had to pay more for chag, maybe suggest that they can save money by buying rabbanut meat or not buying tickets for shul. Unlike failing to pay workers on time, neither is an issur d'oraita.

And with any business you have to think ahead. You want to build up your gan by getting a good reputation, building relationships with the families that can afford your services, etc, not by starting out giving things for free and hoping that later people will make the effort to pay you. The type of people who don't pay workers on time will never be on strong financial footing. Even if they do get rich, they'll still be in debt, because that's what happens to people who take what they can't afford to pay for. So it might be worth it to cut a couple of families loose (although more likely if they see you won't take their kids until they pay they'll find a way to pay) so that in the long term you'll get paying clients.

amother

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 4:46 am

ora_43 wrote:

If they give you an excuse that they had to pay more for chag, maybe suggest that they can save money by buying rabbanut meat or not buying tickets for shul. Unlike failing to pay workers on time, neither is an issur d'oraita.

Buying Rabbanut meat is assur if you're assuming you can't rely on the kashrus based on what your Rav tells you. Are you trying to make a point, or are you being serious? I hardly think Seraph would feel comfy approaching them with that suggestion.

ora_43

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 4:56 am

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I am both being serious and trying to make a point.

There are many rabbis who allow rabbanut meat. There are no rabbis who allow not paying a worker on time. Maybe mentioning that would shock people into realizing that they shouldn't be using frumkeit (in this case, chag expenses) as an excuse to violate Torah law.

shalhevet

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:06 am

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I don't eat rabbanut meat and I agree with Ora. If you don't pay at the agreed time you are mevatel an asei (even if the person agrees), and if you pay late (without permission) you are breaking a Torah law.

Ruchel

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 5:06 am

It's hard. There is such problem in the Jewish gans in France.

Parents don't work. Want to start working. Must put kid(s) in gan. Can't pay fully. Gan refuses. Kid(s) stay(s) home. So do parents. Or one goes to work, good, it's enough to eat and have a social apartment, but they'll never evolve into a normal situation.

Also here it's obvious that Seraph needs the money badly, contrary to the gans in France where everyone gets a regular salary. Now private ganenot...