Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Household Management -> Finances
No Money!
Previous  1  2  3  4  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:10 am
I was using it colloquially. Obviously it's not one of the 365 no-nos, but I'm sure there are some problems with it.
Back to top

Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:11 am
Threads like this make me ILL and I wonder what some of us has over those big, bad non jews.
Back to top

avigailmiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:11 am
Crayon210 wrote:
I was using it colloquially. Obviously it's not one of the 365 no-nos, but I'm sure there are some problems with it.


Fair enough.
Back to top

flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:05 am
Tamiri wrote:
Threads like this make me ILL and I wonder what some of us has over those big, bad non jews.


Noone has anything against non jews. Noone has anything against people that went to public school. If there are so many nice schools that offer a jewish education and the previous generations like Sara Shneur and .... worked hard building up then that has something to say.
Back to top

catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:13 am
I would also favor public school over lying and cheating.

Maybe your impression of public school depends on where you live/grew up.

OP, did you look into moving into a more affordable community, outside the NY bubble?
Back to top

zipporah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 2:20 am
While I've always had to report my income, as I've worked for places that operate on the books, I sent my kids to daycare and paid cash. I felt guilty, but my kids went to a great daycare and the money was supporting a nice widow. Sometimes working within the system just doesn't make much sense. I actually called and asked how 2 families would go about sharing 1 sitter, and the person from the department in charge of daycares said, "you can't!" Since I couldn't afford to pay a sitter all by myself, and we didn't want or need the big McDaycare, cash it was.
Back to top

shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 2:45 am
I would give my children up for adoption to someone who could send them to frum schools if my only option was to send to public school (even in Israel).

In reality, it never comes to that, and there are always other options. There is a famous story about the Ridbaz whose father dismantled the fireplace (the only source of heat) in a winter when the raw materials for fireplaces were in short supply and he could sell them, so that they could pay his rebbe.
Back to top

daamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 3:04 am
Having mesiras nefesh for the sake of keeping mitzvos (or in this case, not sinning) is a huge, important lesson to give children that you can take advantage of here.
Noone is claiming it's easy to cut back, but it's definitely possible. If you keep in mind that what you're given (obviously, what you have earned in an HONEST manner is what you're destined to receive) is what is GOOD for you (not just enough, but a custom-designed plan just for you) will help you have the right attitude, and your kids will get the message.
Being sameach bichelko.
As opposed to giving your kids the message (whether spoken or unspoken, please don't be foolish enough to believe they won't get it subliminally) that they can get what they want in life, or what they think they deserve, is normal, etc, by going against Hashem's wishes.
Maybe some good hashkafa shiurim can help you with this. It's worth more than the most luxurious lifestyle in the world.
I wish you alot of luck in your financial struggles. I know. I've been there.
Back to top

mommalah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 9:14 am
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


As long as it's honest and legal, I don't see what the problem is.


Well, define 'honest and legal.'

Note that I'm NOT telling OP what to do. I don't know what I would do in your position. I don't think I'd want to find out.

But keep in mind that once you get involved in shtick, it's very very hard to get out.

I think you should talk to your rav about this and follow his psak. It's as much a halachic shayla as any other
.


Are you implying that given that the op will have to do "shtick" as you put it, that a Rav could potentially give his "psak" allowing op to halachically steal?
Back to top

OldYoung




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 10:20 am
avigailmiriam wrote:
gold21 wrote:
Sorry but that's rather interesting to state that you would put your kid in public school (where he would learn all kinds of bad middos, and you know it) rather than teach him the one bad middah of lying.

That is just ridiculous.

Op, do what you gotta do to survive. Don't listen to unrealistic , unfair, holier-than-thou, I-am-a-tzaddekes-and-you-are-not advice.



I went to public school. Shockingly, the people I met were largely kind, friendly and upright sorts of people. And I ate the kosher food my parents packed. (I'm BT, my parents were traditional, but they managed to keep my head screwed on just fine while I was in public school.) Public schools are not the festering cesspools on iniquity some people believe they are.

You're talking about a situation where a child would still be living in a frum home in an Orthodox Jewish community. As a short term solution? Why not? With the money saved, the parents would probably still have enough to pay for after-school Jewish education for their kids and still come out ahead.

Sorry, I believe that teaching a child to go through life lying and stealing is wrong. I believe it teaches children that Jews don't have to behave in an appropriate manner. That it is best to steal from non jews to subsidize a financially iresponsible lifestyle. I want to raise children who know how to live within their means and will make the sacrifices necessary to do so.

I never said I was a tzadekess. There are, however, lines I will not cross. Lying to receive government benefits while I'm still spending money on luxuries is one of them.


That's great that you had a good experience in public school. No one said that ps is an aveira, but many parents would find that sending their kids there would be exposing them to all sorts of things they'd rather not have them learn in a school curriculum, not to mention how it's very difficult for a young child to be an environment where non-Jewish holidays are celebrated, etc.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 10:27 am
mommalah wrote:
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


As long as it's honest and legal, I don't see what the problem is.


Well, define 'honest and legal.'

Note that I'm NOT telling OP what to do. I don't know what I would do in your position. I don't think I'd want to find out.

But keep in mind that once you get involved in shtick, it's very very hard to get out.

I think you should talk to your rav about this and follow his psak. It's as much a halachic shayla as any other
.


Are you implying that given that the op will have to do "shtick" as you put it, that a Rav could potentially give his "psak" allowing op to halachically steal?


Well, considering all the people I know who are living (and learning) in Lakewood, who own houses in their mother in law's name but are on Section 8, I can only assume that there are rabbanim that pasken that there are halachic loopholes to be found.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that looking for loopholes is the ideal. I think we should all be like Rav Pam zatzal, who always insisted on paying sales tax and never took a dime that did not belong to him. That is the true Torah way. But like I said above, there are entire communities of people that DO look for loopholes. I would rather be dan l'kaf zechus and say that they must have a psak that it's okay for them for some reason.

In any case, in addition to a psak, an experienced rav can also give OP an eitzah. She is not the only one ever to be in this position. Part of the function of a community rav is to advise people.
Back to top

cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 10:32 am
zipporah wrote:
While I've always had to report my income, as I've worked for places that operate on the books, I sent my kids to daycare and paid cash. I felt guilty, but my kids went to a great daycare and the money was supporting a nice widow. Sometimes working within the system just doesn't make much sense. I actually called and asked how 2 families would go about sharing 1 sitter, and the person from the department in charge of daycares said, "you can't!" Since I couldn't afford to pay a sitter all by myself, and we didn't want or need the big McDaycare, cash it was.


I don't think that's your problem. You can pay someone in cash and they are still obligated to report it to the IRS. Whether they do or don't isn't necessarily your business.
Back to top

cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 10:37 am
mommalah wrote:
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


As long as it's honest and legal, I don't see what the problem is.


Well, define 'honest and legal.'

Note that I'm NOT telling OP what to do. I don't know what I would do in your position. I don't think I'd want to find out.

But keep in mind that once you get involved in shtick, it's very very hard to get out.

I think you should talk to your rav about this and follow his psak. It's as much a halachic shayla as any other
.


Are you implying that given that the op will have to do "shtick" as you put it, that a Rav could potentially give his "psak" allowing op to halachically steal?


I believe there is a "heter" based on a Gemara that talks about a certain point when the Roman tax collectors would come to collect and then come again claiming they never collected and force you to pay twice, something was instituted that said halachically you can figure out a way to not pay your taxes, the reason being that they were corrupt.


And then they criticize the MO for being too creative with halacha.
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 11:00 am
I'm not saying send your kids to PS, because I wouldn't.

but I've heard many speaches about the type of chinuch that children get when its payed with stolen money, or "unkosher" money. Everything impacts spiritually in the home and the chinuch of our children, including this.
Back to top

lostIma




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:44 pm
Its not what anyone HAD with non jews - that they are bad- its assimulation!!!!! thats how the Chorbun bais hamikdash came about - thats why we dotn want to send our children to public school! we are DIFFFERENT! thats why we spend soo much money so our children are NOT like them .....we take EVERY precaution that they stay far away from their ways too.....
Back to top

fish123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:50 pm
While it is commendable that so many of you are so ardently opposed to public school for your children (to the point that someone mentioned she would put hers up for adoption before sending them to ps) please try to understand that in certain situations many don't have other options.

Be sensitive to women who live in communities like mine where the verbal abuse at the Jewish HS has driven dozens of families to ps. These families supplement their childrens Jewish education and these kids go on to Israel just like your kids do. Be sensititve to women who have moved their kids to ps because they just couldn't afford dayschool.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions regarding public school but to condemn it (as well as suggesting that a Jewish child in ps will assimilate) is forgetting that others have had to struggle with this decision and have made different choices than you would have.

I'm not suggesting you change your opinion or not express it in this forum, just be realistic about how others may take it.
Back to top

avigailmiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:37 pm
lostIma wrote:
Its not what anyone HAD with non jews - that they are bad- its assimulation!!!!! thats how the Chorbun bais hamikdash came about - thats why we dotn want to send our children to public school! we are DIFFFERENT! thats why we spend soo much money so our children are NOT like them .....we take EVERY precaution that they stay far away from their ways too.....



I'm aware of all that. And I'm not saying a parent would WANT to send their child to public school. However, I think it's better than the alternative of LYING to STEAL money from the government so you can still pay for private school. That is the situation being discussed.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:47 pm
avigailmiriam wrote:



I'm aware of all that. And I'm not saying a parent would WANT to send their child to public school. However, I think it's better than the alternative of LYING to STEAL money from the government so you can still pay for private school. That is the situation being discussed.


Not any more. OP has made it clear that if she stops working, she can legally go on the programs. there is no lying involved.
Back to top

avigailmiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:48 pm
amother wrote:
avigailmiriam wrote:



I'm aware of all that. And I'm not saying a parent would WANT to send their child to public school. However, I think it's better than the alternative of LYING to STEAL money from the government so you can still pay for private school. That is the situation being discussed.


Not any more. OP has made it clear that if she stops working, she can legally go on the programs. there is no lying involved.


Oh, was the the OP amother? I can't keep them straight.
Back to top

catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 10 2008, 1:58 pm
lostIma wrote:
Its not what anyone HAD with non jews - that they are bad- its assimulation!!!!! thats how the Chorbun bais hamikdash came about - thats why we dotn want to send our children to public school! we are DIFFFERENT! thats why we spend soo much money so our children are NOT like them .....we take EVERY precaution that they stay far away from their ways too.....


If you feel that way, how can live outside of Israel? Don't you want to live amongst almost entirely Jews? I remember once, it might have even been while I was in seminary....my Uncle asked his kids if they had ever seen a [gentile] before...and my cousin answered that maybe once she saw a black person....
Back to top
Page 3 of 4 Previous  1  2  3  4  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

Related Topics Replies Last Post
How do people make money?
by amother
11 Yesterday at 12:35 am View last post
Ideas to save money when making a simcha
by amother
6 Sun, Mar 17 2024, 7:17 pm View last post
[ Poll ] Giving playgroup morah money WITH mm
by amother
6 Fri, Mar 08 2024, 5:19 pm View last post
Is it ungrateful to ask H-shem for money if He's given me so
by amother
34 Thu, Mar 07 2024, 4:44 pm View last post
What is 1 thing u won't eat even if u were offered money?
by amother
83 Sun, Feb 25 2024, 11:18 pm View last post