To be strict or not to be strict

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 1:53 am

I have been pondering this for years: to what point does holding decorum matter? At what point is a parent "too strict" if they insist on certain things?
For example: In our house, we like everyone to be standing around the table when it's time for Shalom Aleichem and Aishet Chayil. We prefer people don't leave the Shabbat table in the middle to go read, or whatever. We like it if everyone stays seated until all are finished with Birkat HaMazon.
We were guests this Friday night at a home where they all sat in the LR to sing Shalom Aleichem and Ayshet Chayil. There were parents and 2 grown (over 20) boys. One of the boys was reading the paper during this time. The parents didn't say a word.
The kids were happy, the parents weren't upset...
Is that better?
We get upset if the kids aren't do it "the right" way.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:15 am

I guess the parents decided early on that there were things not worth arguing about. My point was, they are very loving and calm and happy, whereas I find that when we (DH and I) want things to be "right", it causes strife.
My boys know what "the right" thing is, but we went through many difficult Friday nights. I don't know if it's worth it.
The family we went to won't have bad memories of parents making them do "stuff".
Do you know what I mean?

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:19 am

It's called spoiling your kids - you let them do what they want when they want to get peace and quiet that minute.

Funny, I was just thinking of this on Shabbos. My 4 year old didn't come to the table for kiddush, and not even when we called him to make kiddush (our minhag is for each boy to make his own kiddush - he just says 'borei pri hagafen' meanwhile). Then he left the toys when we went to wash and came to the table. I wouldn't let him make kiddush any more - it was not a pleasant sight.

And I remembered someone we know who I remember at the Shabbos table about 15 years ago, insisting he make kiddush before his Abba, and his parents let him 'because he's still little' (he was about 2). Believe me, now he's 18 he's still too little to act like a mentch.

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:21 am

Tamiri wrote:

I agree you have to pick your battles. But (and of course it's just MHO) I think taking part in the Shabbos table is something worth battling for. I hope these "kids" in their twenties will still be singing Shalom Aleichem with their own children and won't decide that they wouldn't rather just skip it altogether and read the paper instead.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:23 am

We have that kiddush thing as well: be at the table, or lose kiddush.
It's been an issue sometimes.
My kids end up okay, but there is resentment when they see happier kids whose parents don't make them do things.
Hard to explain.
OTOH, I don't have to worry about my grown kids not knowing how to behave.
I don't know.
Can we ever get it "right"?
It's just funny: such big boys, and still reading while everyone sings Shalom Aleichem, but such peace and calm by not making them do "the right" thing.
Sometimes I wonder if being rigid about chinuch is such a good thing, after all.
My results say yes, because they are good and independant and don't get into trouble.
But I have had and continue to have more than a fair share of stress.
Then again, with a bunch of boys... maybe that's how it's meant to be.

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:23 am

This reminds me of a midrash - I can't remember which passuk, but there's one that Hashem throws down emes and shalom. The explanation I heard is that if you take away emes, it is very easy to achieve shalom. The challenge is to have both.

mamacita

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:25 am

I think there is a balance. Pick a few things that are important at a time. Not all at once. After they master a few rules (when they become known, not new, but expected) you can move on to something else. Although peoples' expectations with this are very different. DH's family was MUCH more strict about "manners" than mine. I put that in quotes because in my house we were expected to eat nicely and use our napkins, in his is had to hold his silverware just so, napkin in lap at all times, etc. Would the same work for our kids? Not if they see mommy's napkin on the floor, under her plate, not using a knife for the mashed potatoes etc, so our family is going to need to find a median. Tongue Out

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:26 am

I also understood from your original story that they had always been like this - which I think is just plain running away from giving proper chinuch.

But if the issue would be with teenagers+ who start reading the newspaper, I'm not sure I would say anything about it, because it could drive them away even more.

Mrs.K

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:29 am

Some things are really important to some families and not so important to others. It's all a matter of picking your battles.

I don't feel it's right to judge someone about this. I can understand things like giving an older person a seat on the bus, or saying please and thank you, but something like coming to the table for Eishes Chayil, it's important to some, and not important to others and we can't judge their thought process. Furthermore, you never know another person's previous arrangement. If the boys didn't want to show up to the meal at all, or wanted to pack off after the soup, this could be a compromise they worked out, maybe even consulted their rav, and therefore, we can't judge since we don't know the full extent of the situation.

That doesn't mean anyone is less decent. The important thing is to be aware of those matters that you will absolutely not compromise on. And you shouldnt.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:29 am

All I ask is that they don't eat with their hands, and that they wash their hands well, after the meal. I don't stand on ceremony with regards to proper table etiquette, life is just too short.
I see families where there were no hard-line rules and the kids come out just fine. So it makes me wonder... why bother. OTOH there are kids who grow up with no hard-line rules, and are a mess.
I just feel you can't know which way your own kids will go, so it's better to err on the side of over-Chinuch, rather than under-Chinuch.
But, as we see today, that backfires as well (B'H I don't have that problem).

ChossidMom

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:33 am

It's a little too late to start when they're already teens.
When they're smaller I think you have to have complete clarity in your head of what you want and then go for it. We usually make the kids come for kiddush but they don't ALL always show up. Yesterday my 8 year old didn't even wash because he doesn't like the challahs I bought. We like them to be at the table as much as possible but a bunch of small kids can NOT stay at the table throughout the meal. So, we let them drift away and play but eventually they have to come back for Zemiros or dvar Torah. As you can hear we have a very laid back Shabbos table. We try to keep it structured but we don't want the kids to feel they are in jail. That being said, we get quite annoyed when our 13 year old disappears to the other room to read. We get him to come back when we notice!

You never get it completely right. Life isn't so black and white. And I certainly wouldn't want to model my home on those rigid ones where every child is in his place because terror reigns. Blech. I don't call that chunuch. I call it jail.

ChossidMom

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:34 am

BTW, Tamiri, fyi, in my chinuch class, I think the teacher spent a whole class or two just discussing the Shabbos table. It's a loaded topic and everyone has different opinions and ideas about it. Often, forceful opinions!

Raisin

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:40 am

we make sure our kids are there for kiddush and hamotzie, and then they are hungry so they eat some challa and fish. Then they usually wander off, as our meals can take a long time since we almost always have guests, and come back for some chicken and dessert, and dvar torah and bentching. If we have no guests we keep the meal short and make them sit the whole meal.

Marion

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:54 am

Different strokes for different families. In my inlaws' home the family sings all the pre-kiddush zmirot in the living room. People come and go as the final touches are put on the table, and join us as they're finished. (It's a great time to nurse a baby in the other room so you don't make people wait for kiddush.) When they're finished singing, we move to the table for kiddush, and unless there's a health issue, everyone's expected at the table for kiddush. Of course washing and hamotzi follow.

We do the same.

amother

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 2:56 am

It's not better or worse, just different. You want your children by the table, while your hosts don't care either way.

My dh goes straight to the couch when he comes home from shul and sings over there. He also needs a break after each course, so he goes to the couch. Is that wrong? It depends on what you want.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 3:01 am

So, CM - are there no minimums?
I've been at this for 23 years and can't undo previous chinuch. But, I wonder: is it a good thing to loosen up for the younger ones (9 and 4)? Should I throw the rules away? But then the older ones say: hey, you were not so easy with us, why now?
FWIW, the kids don't sit at the table the whole time. They can't. If we're having an adult conversation, the younger ones will drift off. But I surely don't appreciate when they drift off towards the end of the meal, when there is a table to be cleared etc.
At what point is it rigid chinuch and at what point, "lax but okay"?
I think that basically, all kids turn out okay. I have seen it with my own eyes. Kids I did not want in my house or at my Shabbat table because they were wild Indians and messy eaters (hands, ketchup all over the place etc.) grew up and got married.

lubaussie

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 3:07 am

When we were growing up, my father was VERY strict at the shabbos table. We had to stand when we had to stand, sit when we had to sit, etc. We were never allowed to leave the table, except for bathroom or to quickly fetch something. We weren't allowed to say anything out of line (eg something that wasn't shabbosdik, etc) and no fighting was allowed. When he was saying a dvar torah, everyone had to be quiet, and if he and my zaidy were singing zmiros, we all had to either sing along or be quiet. Private conversations with the person next to you were frowned upon. Basically, it was a very formal affair. I know this sounds kind of totalitarianist, but it actually resulted in a beautiful shabbos meal (if a little frustrating for overactive kids!) - we still had jokes and laughter, we had wonderful zmiros, a wonderful family time. It was a beautiful shabbos meal. Now, with my kids, I'm not so strict. I let them get up to much more than my father did to us, but I'm still quite rigid with my rules, and not to put down others who don't, but in my experiences, I can definitely see the difference. Quite often my kids are the ones behaving at the shabbos meal, and it'll be the other families' kids who are running off, wild, not in the 'shabbos spirit'. Just in my experience.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 3:10 am

It's not like that at my house, Chava, but it sure sounds respectful. Proper Shabbat-table behavior. And, the kids knew where they stood so there was no room for mishegass.
It's much more lax these days. I would be surprised if anyone has rules like that any more.
Do you resent it at all?

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Nov 30 2008, 3:27 am

I grew up, we did everything at the table and depending on whether we had guests or how exasperated my bothers were making my mother, we all stayed at the table for the full meal. When it was just family, the conversation tried to include everyone.

Now we have the same thing - the teenagers stay at the table, the toddler either for a nap or goes to play. If we find that the meal is mostly over but the conversation isn't, we'll bentch, EVERYONE clears and then we move to the couch.

Former neighbors of ours are VERY lax... they can spend 15 minutes calling their 2 sons to the table (both are over 17 now and it was always like this) and if they show up, then fine. If not, they show up eventually. One usually takes 2 bites of food and then shuffles off to the couch. Whether he makes it back to the table for Zimun is anybody's guess. And neither help with the setting or clearing of the table. Their whole approach to the Shabbat table always turned me off...