Housework Harridan or Parenting Paragon?

creativemommyto3

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 5:01 pm

zaq wrote:

Thank you creativemommy for your thoughtful post. However, I do not need an idiot's or even a genius's guide to time management. I could probably give YOU a few pointers. Yes, I have been to the jewish flylady site and to my surprise found nothing new that I could use because I am already quite organized, thank you. Seriously, I looked at the site, ignored the sections on potchkerei that I would never bother with, like creating centerpieces out of stacks of glassware and developing "themes" for my table, and found nothing in the way of organization that I could apply to my household that I wasn't already doing. My routine is stripped down to basics. Maybe not quite as basic as when I had 4 kids under 4, but pretty basic. I now have the luxury of baking cake every few weeks. when I had 4 under 4, it was Stella d'Oro streimel cookies or nothing.

However, my time management skills or lack thereof are not the issue. I'm not griping that I can't get my house clean without my children's help, since g-d willing when they all move out I'll have no choice but to go it alone. I'm griping that the yeshiva system with its excessive hours is creating a situation in which it is impossible for boys to do their rightful share of housework. I consider this bad chinuch. Clearly your values and mine are somewhat divergent. I consider contributing to the housework to be as important as learning. I see too many guys who use learning as an excuse to escape from their responsibilities at home. who wouldn't want to be sitting in the BM with his buddies when at home there is laundry and cleaning and dirty diapers to change? much as I may admire women who are willing to slave away so that their hubbies can sit and learn, I didn't choose that path for myself and don't want that path for my children.

FYI my children most certainly do help around the house, I wouldn't have it any other way. But they actually did more around the house when they were younger because they didn't have night seder and had school on sunday only till 12. Deep clean on sunday? when they leave home at 7 for minyan and don't get home till close to 4--that is, if they're not helping a classmate who needs extra review of a sugyah? I don't think so! They're lucky if they manage to do their laundry sunday afternoon. and you know, sometimes we want them to do other things on sunday afternoons, like visit their grandparents who are in nursing homes, or even, perish the thought, spend some time outdoors getting fresh air and exercise. are you aware that yeshiva bocherim have only about half the bone density of non-yeshiva males the same age? This has distressing implications for their present and future health and well-being. And we have the emergency room bills for broken bones to bear this out. Sitting on their duffs bent over books all day every day is NOT HEALTHY. It is said that learning Torah saps a man's physical strength. Some may view this as a good thing; I beg to differ. venishmartem me'od lenafshoseichem is a mitzvas asei.

On a regular weekday, my sons leave home at 7, come home at 6.30 for supper, go back for night seder at about 7.30 and don't come back till 11.00 the earliest. sometimes as late as midnight. that's every night of the week, and thursday night is even later. I'm not even addressing the issue that young people this age actually need 9-10 hours of sleep and are getting no more than 6, which is a whole nother issue. see above about venishmaryem me'od lenafshoseichem.

if you'd ever lived with a young man between the ages of about 13 and 25, you would know that taking a shower friday morning is NOT GOING TO DO IT for shabbos. even in winter. sorry, even I don't feel clean on shabbos if I've only taken a shower friday morning. my friday afternoon shower is brief, but I'm not giving it up, nor is anyone else in our household.

fox, I seem to have hijacked your thread, for which I apologize, but digressions and tangents are inevitable in a forum of this nature. btw, I really like your threadtitle.

one more question, why is it that you just can't tell your kids that each child has to do their part.. pick up what they played/worked with? make a rotation chart etc etc.. these kids still have loads of homework .. don't they also deserve free time?

I also train my boys to help and tell them that first they bring their plate to the sink and then go learn. It's all about how you present it.. Maybe read over what you write.. you sounded like you were overwhelmed and needed their help. Where is your dh in the picture??

pacifier

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 5:06 pm

Fox wrote:

Good points, amother above! One thing that I think I'm pretty good about is letting my girls have the jobs that are the most fun. For example, one of them will make a cake, but I'll do the cleanup.

I got that tip, BTW, from Rebbetzin Tziporah Heller many years ago (before I had children, even). She spoke at a local institution, and one of her points was that mothers should ask themselves if they really want help or if they just want to unload the worst jobs on somebody else. That must have made an impression on me!

I think you have a very good approach to getting help from your kids.
true 45 minutes to 1 hour seems long, but if they see it's fair, plus are appreciated plus you let them do the fun jobs!!! go for it!!!
growing up, I could only make a cake if I would clean the kitchen before and after!!! and hardly ever got thanked. I resented it so much.....

now with the school issue... did you ask your kids if they feel they are doing too much? did they complain to their teachers?

creativemommyto3

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 5:15 pm

pacifier wrote:

Fox wrote:

Yes fox, you have a great approach..

creativemommyto3

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 5:28 pm

zaq wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

these kids still have loads of homework .. don't they also deserve free time?

THAT'S MY COMPLAINT!!!!!!!WWITH THE YESHIVA DAY SO LONG, THEY HAVE NO FREE TIME! EXACTLY! And therefore, the chores they used to do reliably when they were younger--chores that are in no way overwhelming, beyond their capacity to do, or especially time-consuming--I let slide and end up doing myself precisely because they have no free time, not even enough to get a good night's sleep.

And I feel this is very bad chinuch. What they're learning is "If you spend all your time in BM, you get away with not pitching in at home."

Maybe you can give them easier jobs.. don't you feel bad asking them to do things knowing that they have so much school work? They also work full time and then have more work to do at home.. There isn't much the school can do being that they learn both kodesh and chol.

Maybe you can teach each child to swish the toilet after each use and to wipe the seat with a wipe each time.. and then wipe the sink with a sanitizing wipe.. arent' there special sprays that could be used right after a person takes a shower to clean it?

Maybe make pita pizza for thursday nite supper.. I wasn't trying to criticize you , only give you ideas to help..

zaq

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 6:00 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

Maybe make pita pizza for thursday nite supper.. I wasn't trying to criticize you , only give you ideas to help..[/quote]

creativemommy, please stop giving me advice. I ahven't asked you for advice. I've been a fullt-ime working mother since you were in diapers and I could write a book myself. I haven't asked for your ideas, generous though you are to share them. Get it? I'm not asking for advice from you or anyone else; I'm expressing my dissatisfaction with a system that teaches boys at an early age that pitching in at home is not a value. A system that you yourself clearly value, as is your right, and which you are attempting to "protect' from my anger by diverting me with helpful little tips and tricks suitable for children in third grade. My children are adults and know perfectly well how to clean a toilet, iron a shirt, or change a lightbulb...I taught them! They just don't have the time.

Yes, I feel bad asking them to do things knowing they have so little time...that's why I so resent the system that leaves them with no time. I also work full time, I also have homework when I come home, yet the work has to be done.

amother

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 9:38 pm

I also helped around the house alot. I washed dishes, did laundry, put the kids to bed, baked... I did it all with a smile and willingly. (I did not even resent it when my parents adopted two special needs children, which gave me even more work-I did homework with them as my parents were for the most part past having patience to do homework. But I loved these two kids and loved to help them.) I was always considered my mother's big girl, she considered me her right hand. Perhaps that is why I did not resent it. Also my school encouraged helping our mothers-no school on friday in high school, no homework on thursday...
I don't think it is too much to expect children to help out at home, A home is not run singlehandedly, and no one should expect it to.
Creativemommy, I believe that you are missing the point that zaq is trying to make. She does not necessarily need her children's help, but is very against a system in which the children do not even have time to help due to long school hour and added school work. While I too am very machshiv torah, and a married to a kollel yungerman, I have to agree to acertain extent with zaq. Boys should be taught to help too, not just girls. In my mothers house the boys kept their rooms orderly, it was mandator(!) that they also clear off from the table on shabbos and during the week when they were home, they even baked (and the single ones still do) and all this does not take away from their learning time. They all grow up to be fine men, learning in Kollel all day and other torah things (one is a dayan in training...) while still knowing that they should help around the house.

(anonymous because I gave out personal family info)

Happy Mom

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 12:56 am

I'm wondering how much younger mothers understand what's involved in running a larger household with older children. I don't think there's any way to really get how much the school demands take away from the time with family, until you've been there. Handling the messes of little children is a very different ballgame than managing a home with the multiplied demands of older kids. I've had the amusing experience of having a mother with significant household help (full time, every day), much smaller family and younger kids, tell me how she manages chores for her kids (which are almost non existant in her home - they had to put away their own folded clean laundry in their drawers)- she really didn't realize how presumptuous she sounded. I just figured she was happy with how her home ran and was trying to be helpful, even though I'm pretty well organized and didn't ask for her help!

Zaq, I totally get where you're coming from, and I have a lot of the same concerns about the yeshiva system and how it affects boys. I think their learning is important, but it's also important for them to learn how to be responsible for themselves. My ds15 wears white shirts every day, and likes them to be spotless and ironed - fine, I think that's great. So he gets to take care of it. And he washes dishes and helps clean like anyone else in this family (this was much harder to balance last year when he was in yeshiva - the hours expected of boys are ridiculous and leave them with no time or energy for anything). Too many boys go from homes where they never helped out, to being married and not doing anything - they don't know how, and more than that, they don't have any concept of why they should!

>>I learned that when we ask kids to help, it should be for chinuch reasons, not to save ourselves the expense of getting cleaning help. <<

I think that whether you've saving money on cleaning help or not isn't the issue. The reality is that a home needs a certain amount of work to function, and a mother can't (and shouldn't) do it all herself. Teaching children to help in the home is a crucial part of chinuch. If the financial resources aren't there, the human resources need to be. If school demands are affecting a child's ability to participate in normal and necessary home life, then the problem isn't parents, the problem is the schools.

Fox, when you said 45 -60 minutes it might have sounded like a lot, but I didn't get the impression from the jobs you're asking of your kids that it's too much. For example, cooking rice takes less than five minutes - so what if it takes thirty for it to cook? That's not the same as thirty minutes of work! As long as you're not sitting around letting them do all the work, and you have a positive and appreciative attitude of what they do, it sounds to me like you're handling chores and expectations just fine.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:43 am

amother wrote:

I wasn't misunderstanding zaq's point.. I understand her problem.. you can't fix the world.. being that there is probably no way to change it.. I was trying to help her function without it a bit.. I don't believe that when a boy comes home from yeshiva he doesn't have ten minutes to make his bed in the morning, and put things a bit in order.. could put the breakfast dishes away and quickly wipe the table.. etc etc. Also, they probably could squeeze 15 minutes at nite to sweep ,do some dishes etc.. even if they come home at let's say 10:30..
Maybe I was reading wrong , but I got the impression from her posts that she wants them to be helping ALL thursday nite....
Also, she can make it that they serve, clean up etc on Shabbos.. Someone can help her do the shabbos dishes.
What's the point in kvetching about the system? work around it. That was my point.

I think it is all about attitutude and creativity.. She can still instill the idea that boys must help even within the system. True, it's not right for the schools to give extra homework and do mishmar on Thursday nite.. Think about it this way.. they are not eating at home and therefore not making a mess at home.. less supper for her to cook...

I too liked helping my mother and loved cooking for shabbos or baking for her.. but it's all about the attitude we give over.. If we give over that they OWE it to us then it's wrong.. If we make it exciting and special that we are all working as a team then fine.

Also, another way to show boys that they should help, is to have their father help too..

I know she hates that I am giving tips but here goes.. each child have their own laundry basket for laundry and have a nite where they dump their stuff in the machine .. then in the morning they could put it in the dryer.. and when they get home each nite they could put some away.

My point was instead of fighting the system, learn to work around it.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 1:48 am

Happy Mom wrote:

I might have kids who are small but I discuss these things all the time with my sil who is expecting number nine.. She also has her kids help but she is very careful not to give too much b/c she doesn't want them to resent it.

Oh and by the way, my husband was brought up doing 4 hours of cleaning on fridays.. guess what.. I barely get him to sweep the floor !!!!!!!

zaq

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 10:43 am

creativemommyto3 wrote:

. they are not eating at home and therefore not making a mess at home.. less supper for her to cook...

actually, they are. it's a commuter school and boys go home for supper. Please stop making assumptions about the nature of my household. You're coming off as incredibly arrogant and know-it-all. Read what HappyMom said, she's got the picture exactly. Incidentally, as you will IY"H learn as your family grows, having 1 or 3 fewer kids home for supper doesn't make a dent in anything except the noise level. It takes as long to make soup for 4 as it does for 8. Not that I would dream of cooking soup for 4. It's a cauldron-ful, to last 3 days, or nothing.

creativemommyto3 wrote:

If we make it exciting and special that we are all working as a team then fine.

yes, love, that works when you're 4 or 5. I, too, adored scrubbing pots and pans when I was 5! what a privilege to be allowed to wash dishes! And the day I hemmed my first dress, whoa, I was in the BIG TIME! Yahoo! By the time you're 14 and have washed dishes over a thousand times (let's say 3 times a week for 52 weeks over 7 years, starting at age 7), the enthusiasm dims a bit. Especially when you find out that most of your friends don't lift a finger in the house.

creativemommyto3 wrote:

I know she hates that I am giving tips but here goes.. each child have their own laundry basket for laundry and have a nite where they dump their stuff in the machine .. then in the morning they could put it in the dryer.. and when they get home each nite they could put some away.

Creative, I have to assume English is not your native language because despite your protestatiuons to the contrary, you haven't understood a word I've said. Nor do you want to. stop with the advice already, I'm decades ahead of you. my kids don't have their own laundry baskets, they have their own full-size HAMPERS, that's plural, and they've been doing their own laundry since they were about 9, ironing their own shirts since they were 13, take their own breakfast, lunch and sometimes supper, and guess what, they take showers all by themselves and brush their teeth without being told, too.

You know, creative, you remind me of a radio talk-show "therapist" I once knew. She pretty much had a preset agenda, a topic she was going to address regardless of what the callers wanted to ask about. She didn't ask questions about their situation, she just started shooting off about you ought to stop doing this and start doing that. I remember one caller who was complaining about her boyfriend monopolizing her time, and this quack started in advising the caller to lose weight, start exercising, get a new hairdo and take yoga. The show didn't last too long.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 11:01 am

zaq wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

. they are not eating at home and therefore not making a mess at home.. less supper for her to cook...

creativemommyto3 wrote:

If we make it exciting and special that we are all working as a team then fine.

creativemommyto3 wrote:

No, I just think that you just want to complain about the schools and don't want to hear that your child's chinuch could actually be worked around it.... The reason why the boys learn so much on Thursday nite is because that is in preparation for Shabbos. Shabbos isn't only about food and cleaning house, it's a spiritual time for the family.
The only preset "agenda" I might have is to say that Torah learning has it's value and that there is no reason why their helping in the house can't be worked around it.
If your kids are doing all that stuff.. why are you complaining? What exactly do you NEED them to do Thursday nite??

Happy Mom

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 2:51 pm

>>o, I just think that you just want to complain about the schools and don't want to hear that your child's chinuch could actually be worked around it.... The reason why the boys learn so much on Thursday nite is because that is in preparation for Shabbos. Shabbos isn't only about food and cleaning house, it's a spiritual time for the family.
The only preset "agenda" I might have is to say that Torah learning has it's value and that there is no reason why their helping in the house can't be worked around it.
If your kids are doing all that stuff.. why are you complaining? What exactly do you NEED them to do Thursday nite?? <<

Creative, it sounds like your household runs beautifully and I'm so glad you've found ways to make it work for you. Zaq isn't in crisis, and that's why she's asking you to look past giving tips for how to make it function better and to hear the issue she's actually discussing - her house runs fine, because she HAS learned how to work within the system. If she didn't care about Torah learning, she would send her boys to a school where they finished at 5 pm and there wouldn't be any issue.

A person can share strong feelings about the system and shouldn't be told they're complaining, negative, have to pull themselves together, etc. The reality is that the system is very challenging to work within and navigate, and takes enormous resources of parents who care about supplementing their child's chinuch in any area outside of the beis medrash. Is it threatening to hear someone expressing legitimate concerns about the yeshiva system? It could be when you're in that parsha, not vicariously, but actually living it, you might agree with her. You might not, and that's fine, too. But feedback comes across alot differently from someone who has btdt and someone who hasn't.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Dec 17 2008, 3:00 pm

Happy Mom wrote:

I hear that. I just figured that since my schedule isn't easy either, I would try to help. I only said that after she made it seem like I didn't know what I was talking about. Telling me that I have no idea what I am talking about is unfair b/c I do know what it's like. She really has no idea what my experiences are or what I am like.
I don't think I am living this so vicariously.. My schedule is quite nutty too and thought I would help someone with their sit..
Maybe instead of getting so jumpy, she could actually read what I am trying to say.