explaining segulas

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 7:59 pm

Since we're going to get deleted anyhow, much of the mysticism we associate with kabbala is not Jewish in origin anyhow. Which is why you have to look closely at "segulos" and make sure they are not superstition, which most of them are.

As one of my rabbis said about the custom of putting a knife under a baby's bed prior to the bris - "If this religion believes in a God that would harm a baby because the parents didn't put a knife under his bed, this isn't a God I want anything to do with". Bad argument, but the sentiment stands.

I have no problem saying that much of what we consider "Jewish" has its origin elsewhere. Neither did the people writing about these ideas, as they freely took their ideas from the prevailing wisdom at the time.

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 8:40 pm

Yes, many segulos come from foreign sources and are not Jewish at all. Generally, the best segula is to look in the torah, see what Hashem said you should do, and do it.
But to go so far and say anything that doesn't sound logical to you is therefore absurd, is going too far.
For example, tashlich. Does Hashem forgive your sins more if you stand by water so the fish could eat them? Not terribly logical. But this is longstanding minhag klal yisroel. Even halacha, such as washing hands in the morning to remove the "ruach ra'ah" sounds odd rom a logical standpoint. You can not simply discount everything that does not make sense to you.
But I do wish more people would cut out many of the segulos.

zaq

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 8:53 pm

miriamf wrote:

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For example, tashlich. Does Hashem forgive your sins more if you stand by water so the fish could eat them?

AAMOF I read in more than one sefer that the rabbanim opposed the custom of tashlich. the bottom line is, people will do what they want to do. If an idea captures the people's imagination, they will accept it even over rabbinical opposition, until eventually it becomes "minhag yisroel" , but that doesn't make it a good thing.

and incidentally, I will stick my neck out here and make a lot of people mad, but in the middle ages the rabbanim all opposed the use of wigs, certainly human-hair wigs, as kissui rosh for married women-- and in the middle ages the wigs were nowhere nearly as realistic as the ones we have today yet somehow...somehow....human-hair wigs morphed into minhag yisrael. Interesting, isn't it?

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 8:58 pm

miriamf wrote:

Generally speaking, you're right. It's not about sounding logical, it's about additions to our practice of Judaism that come from elsewhere. If it's not logical AND it's not even ours, why on earth would we do it.

However, interesting couple of examples you bought: many people don't throw bread into the water, and the point of doing tashlich at the water, according to these people, is because we are crowning God as King - and anointing kings is always done at water. Also, ruach ra'ah, for those who do not believe in sheidim, is another word alternately for germs/dirt that cause illness, or to remove tumah, back in the day when we were not all tamei anyway (the idea of tumah is a whole 'nother question, but besides the point in this case). Either way, it's not something particularly "mystical".

Hope this helps - and I think we're mostly in agreement here, so cool Smile

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 9:23 pm

Tzippora wrote:

Also, ruach ra'ah, for those who do not believe in sheidim, is another word alternately for germs/dirt that cause illness, or to remove tumah, back in the day when we were not all tamei anyway (the idea of tumah is a whole 'nother question, but besides the point in this case). Either way, it's not something particularly "mystical".

Hope this helps - and I think we're mostly in agreement here, so cool Smile

No way I would ever agree with that. Halacha was not meant as hygiene. Dangerous territory.

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 9:27 pm

miriamf wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

No way I would ever agree with that. Halacha was not meant as hygiene. Dangerous territory.

They believed it was sheidim that made them sick. We now know it was not sheidim, it is germs. Doesn't mean we stop doing it. Also offered the hypothesis of it being to get rid of tumah.

and what am I in danger of?

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 9:33 pm

There are three explanations why the rabbis instituted to wash our hands when we wake up in the morning:

a. We assume that the hands, which are always occupied, touched private (or sweaty) parts of the body; therefore they must be washed before we pray (Rosh, Brachos 9:23 and Rambam, Laws of Tefillah 4:1).

b. Every morning when G-d returns the soul to the person, it is as if the person is created anew. We, therefore, have to sanctify ourselves before we start our service of G-d just like a kohen (priest - descendant of Aaron) in the Holy Temple would wash his hands from the kiyor (a special Temple washing vessel) before his daily service (Shalos Utshuvos HaRashba vol. 1 ch. 191).

c. According to Kabbalah, when the soul departs the body at night, the body is occupied by a ruach hatumah (spirit of impurity). When the person awakens and the soul returns, the ruach hatumah leaves the entire body but remains in the hands until the wrists. The only way to remove this ruach hatumah is by washing netilas yadayim (Zohar Parshat Vayeshev 184b).

I never heard of the reason for the halacha being that they believed shaidim made them sick and now we know it is germs. The danger is in saying those who created halacha were ignorant superstitious people and we know better. As I said, dangerous territory.

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 9:36 pm

miriamf wrote:

So basically, if you want to look at the three reasons you provided, 1 is halachic, 2 is symbolic/zecher, and 3 is kabbalistic. I have no problem with 1 or 2, I do not believe in 3.

It is not problematic not to believe in shaidim, and I'm not saying anything negative about the people who created halacha. They simply did not have the scientific knowledge about germs, and often blamed them on shaidim. Makes sense, if you don't have a microscope. But either way, I'm not saying we shouldn't wash our hands, and I don't have to believe in kabbalistic reasons to do it.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 9:39 pm

Thanks all for your answers.

As I said in my original post, I am not one for segulas. in fact at DS's Pidyon, DH's grandmother wanted him to wear a red string. I refused. She saw his pacifier clip had red on it and was satisfied...so I almost took it off to 'spite the seguah' so to speak (I didnt out of respect for her though)

So I dont hold by segulahs....I was just looking for a way to explain it to the X-tian coworker. I thought more people here believed in them. Now that I know I am not in the minority, I will feel more comfortable saying so.

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:06 pm

To say that halacha was created based on primitve mistakes about hygiene is definitely not acceptable in the Orthodox Judaism I believe in. If one accepts the idea that they were trying to to get rid of shaidim which really are germs, all the halachos as to order of hands, times, etc, would be irrelevant, and we should just take some soap and hot water. That suggestion just seems unacceptable to me. I am not especially familiar with Modern Orthodoxy, but if it is accpetable in MO, I guess it is another example of the great divide.
As far as Kabbala, though my derech doesn't emphasize it, I am not willing to brush off as irrelevant the writings of people through out history who were way greater than I. The Arizal, the Maharal, the Baal Shem tov, The Rema Mipano, and so many others. I simply do not have the arrogance to do so.

avigailmiriam

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:11 pm

miriamf wrote:

It does not follow from the concept of created halacha that we should not follow it anyway. That is conflating two different issues. Just as there are people who believe the law is divine but do not follow it in every particular, there are people who follow the law but believe there may be human influence in some aspects of it.

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:25 pm

miriamf wrote:

To add to what AM said - we certainly know that the science of the times was wrong. They believed in a geocentric universe, and in spontaneous generation of organisms. And they based halacha on these errors all the time. The gemara holds that if a piece of meat is left out and has maggots in it, you can eat the meat if you didn't see any flies land on it - because the maggot were spontaneously generated! We still hold this halacha, but I certainly am willing to say their science was wayyyy off. Exactly what is your alternative?

And kabbala is a whole different topic, and much more complex in terms of its origin.

avigailmiriam

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:31 pm

miriamf wrote:

I am afraid I don't follow. Mitzvos D'rabbanan by definition have human influence.
Perhaps I am missing something (a definite possibility) but this germ idea sounds very similar to me to expanations that laws of nidda were based on misconceptions about the menstruating woman and pig was forbidden because of some disease it used to cause which we can now eliminate. If we believe those kinds of reasons, why should we keep halacha?

People keep halacha for plenty of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with God.

1. Social: Being a part of Jewish culture may come at a price--and that price is playing by the rules, so to speak. Frum culture has many wonderful things to offer.

2. Enjoyment: Some people LIKE keeping halacha, and LIKE being religious, even if they do not believe in a divine impetus behind it's formulation.

3. Familial: A desire to raise children in the Orthodox lifestyle because one thinks it's the best way to live, a desire to stay married to one's religious spouse, a desire to please one's parents, etc.

4. Cultural: A desire to identify with one's culture/heritage/history, even if you do not believe in a divine basis for said culture.

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:31 pm

miriamf wrote:

Good question. But I will say that I'm not saying the reasons are obsolete - particularly with handwashing, which you gave two good, non-obsolete reasons that I credit. Similarly, if you look at the point of niddah and yes, not eating pigs, there are societal phenomena that are part of the result of the mitzvah (see the Rambam for the example on pigs). But besides - if you believe that halacha d'oraisa is divine and that there is a good reason to follow halacha d'rabanan, then you will not be threatened by the fact that yes, their science was wrong and informed their rulings. If you don't believe this, then you're right, we shouldn't keep it.

But what is the alternative? Defend their science? I wouldn't be able to credibly do that.

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:32 pm

Tzippora wrote:

miriamf wrote:

Man oh man. I was once kicked off a diferent message board after pages of arguing this exact topic. I belive there are threads on this board also of the topic of science in halacha that does not fit with science today, and what our options are in beliveing. Too bad I can't access that old board anymore. I don't know if I want to do it all over again, maybe tomorrow I'll have more time. But just to respond to the example you brought, when it says they did not come from eggs, it means that the eggs were not of the size that are recognized in halacha, and therefore don't "exist" halachically.

ra_mom

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:36 pm

OP, I think you should go with the medicine approach that the others have mentioned.
G-d placed certain strengths into certain things, specifically for our use. And just like medicine which we use TOGETHER with prayer and togther with our belief in G-d, we use these objects that hold strength in addition to our prayers, as we were taught to do our Hishtadlus, and not to rely only on miracles.
I really don't think you should discuss the various opinions of Segulas with the women. Just answer the question that she asked you.

Tzippora

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:39 pm

miriamf wrote:

Tzippora wrote:

miriamf wrote:

That concept does exist in halacha, but is not what they believed in this case. Because if flies DID land on the meat, then whether you can see the eggs is irrelevant. The point being that they did believe in the possibility of spontaneous generation of eggs. But answer the broader question - can you actually defend the science of the amoraim, or for that matter rishonim or many acharonim? Without apologetics like the above, either.

gonewiththewind

Sat, Jan 10 2009, 10:43 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

miriamf wrote:

Orthodox Judaism is predicated on the belief of divine origin. If one keeps halacha for social,enjoyment, familial, or cultural reasons, it is certainly a good deed, but without the belief, is sort of an empty shell.