Can Chareidim be Yuppies?

Raisin

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 5:48 am

mimivan wrote:

cassandra wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Is anyone a yuppie anymore? I thought that was an 80s thing.

.

Just what I was thinking being a professional went out a long time ago because it means you actually have to work hard for your money, even before you start earning it. First it was the tech boom then that went out, then it was real estate and hedge funds and unfortunately those are out too these days.... Stay tuned for a whole new set of sociological classifications in the coming months.

Yes, I edit a financial blogger who thinks, because of the current economic situation that conspicuous frugality in the 2010s will be what conspicuous consumption was in the 80s...it will be a bizarro world where people will brag about the great stuff they found at Salvation Army, will think people who don't reuse teabags are "uncool" etc... LOL

avigayilmiriam will be coolest of the cool!

ss321

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 6:35 am

meirav wrote:

ss321 wrote:

To clarify: I dont have a problem with ANYONE living such a lifestyle, so long as they are paying for it themselves, not "living luxuriously off parents income."

Why does this bother you if the parents don't mind?

because I LIVE in the world where I see both sides. Many of the parents DO mind. They cant make ends meet. They are taking out second mortgaged on their homes. They are paying to make opulent weddings at the most extravagent hotels and halls, because their kids "need" it.

The people who can afford to provide their families with the best should still continue to do so, dont get me wrong...but within reason. I think it is important that no matter how wealthy you are, you learn what responsibility means. I have a cousin who is wealthier than most people can imagine (I mean like a couple billion to his name). His kids clear the shabbos table every week. They make their beds in the morning. And I know for a fact, that when one of his children got married and wanted to do the israel learning thing for a couple of years, she came home twice in that three year period. Not because her parents dont love her or want to provide her with the very best....they pay her tuition, they pay for her kids clothing, they helped her with her mortgage...B"H they are able, and so there is nothing they wouldnt do for their kids. They sent her to israel with such a "mindset" because it IS for her best. You want the learning lifestyle? Then fine, have it, for a few years! Go ahead, were behind you. But dont go and "pretend" just to keep up with your friends who try to show you how wealthy they are...

meirav

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 7:07 am

Hmm.. I hear what you mean about people living off parents who can't afford it. But if they can't afford it, why are they giving it? Yes, the kids shouldn't even think of taking it, but why do the parents offer it?

The kids aren't exactly robbing the parents in the dead of the night, so if you are struggling, why must you come for your dd's birth with a store full of expensive clothes for the granddaughter?

Who is at fault here?

And I find it hard to believe that all the parents of Floppies are struggling financially.

Also, no matter how toned down Americans are, they still seem extravagant to Israelis. I always know I look good at a wedding, because even if I'm wearing my frumpiest Shabbos suit, it's usually nicer than what the mother of the kallah is wearing! (okay, slight exaggeration, but only slight.) So how much responsibility are we throwing on rich people, when the poor people should be the ones learning how to control themselves?

Disclaimer - I am an American living in Israel, but live in an Israeli neighborhood, I don't have a Bugaboo, most of the time I wear a snood and no makeup, and my kids show up in the park in chocolate and ketchup stained outfits. I believe in simplicity, and believe that too much gashmius is detrimental to ruchnius. I am playing devil's advocate, because this discussion (and I've had many on the topic, not just here) is starting to bother me, and it seems like jealousy in disguise. The passionate responses I get to this topic doesn't seem warranted. We don't spend as much time ranting about other people's Shabbos observance, as much as we worry about their gashmius.

I would appreciate clear, thought out responses to this.

ss321

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 8:21 am

Meirav, I agree with alot of what you are saying. I really do. See my responses below.

meirav wrote:

you are RIGHT. the parents should NOT be offering it. It is as much a "sickness" that affects the parents, as it is a "sickness" that affects the kids in school.

meirav wrote:

The kids aren't exactly robbing the parents in the dead of the night, so if you are struggling, why must you come for your dd's birth with a store full of expensive clothes for the granddaughter?

Who is at fault here?

you are right. Alot of it is the parents fault. For allowing their kids to live like this, giving in to it, etc, when they really cant afford it, and then going and "crying" to tuition committees and gemachs begging them to help because they cant pay for their next kids bar mitzvah. Well maybe they shouldve taken that into cosideration when planning the last one, and made a more toned down affair, instead of a ball for 500 people. I want to clarify, I do NOT have a problem with anyone doing anything within their means, I have a problem with people doing things beyond their means, and then CRYING to other people, that its "not my fault," a they made me do it type attitude - its "because of the lifestyle" or hte "times" that I have to do this for my kids.

meirav wrote:

And I find it hard to believe that all the parents of Floppies are struggling financially.

nah, not all of them. And again. I dont have any sort of tayna against these so called floppies (love that word now). I just find their choices incredibly immature. Like do you think youre "fooling" someone- with your israel "experience" "learning husband" and "ruchniyus" all combined with the latest couture and whirlwind trips around the country and to europe?

meirav wrote:

Also, no matter how toned down Americans are, they still seem extravagant to Israelis.

right lol. I hear what youre saying (wedding attire etc, made me laugh). But I am an american, and an american that many people on here would probably accuse of living more "extravagantly" rather than simply.

meirav wrote:

So how much responsibility are we throwing on rich people, when the poor people should be the ones learning how to control themselves?

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT. I agree with you. People need to learn to live with their means, and accept what is given to them in life, for better or for worse.

meirav wrote:

I am playing devil's advocate, because this discussion (and I've had many on the topic, not just here) is starting to bother me, and it seems like jealousy in disguise. The passionate responses I get to this topic doesn't seem warranted. We don't spend as much time ranting about other people's Shabbos observance, as much as we worry about their gashmius.

I understand why you are playing devils advocate, but understand, I am on "the same side" as you. I dont "fault" these floppies, I dont think they are bad people...I do think they are a tad bit immature, and if you really think that a year of "inspiration" with a "husband learning in the mir" involves shuffling your bugaboo around arzei and taking taxis to tel aviv to shop a couple times per week, well, youre missing the boat, thats all. And wasting your parents hard earned money.
Trust me, its not jealousy. I was too busy (still am) with school to want to "do the Israel" thing when we first got married, and there are plenty of wonderful Yeshivos back here in the states and B"H my DH was afforded time to sit and learn after we got married and I am so happy he did, it helped build the foundation upon which our home is built. B"H I am blessed with whichever material things I need, and I have a bugaboo, my kids have nice clothes, and so on. So I am not at all "jealous," I just find it laughable. Thats all.

Mrs.K

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 8:45 am

SS321,

Once again, I take issue with you naming specific streets or neighborhoods in your generalizations.
To be clear, I agree with your general point. I agree with Meirav in that if a parent has the means and wants to provide then great, it's their money and not my business. I also think it's ridiculous for parents in Flatbush to be going into debt because their child needs a $1000 stroller (Does that really happen? What ever happened to just saying no???)

But once again, I find it offensive (and lashon harah) to name my specific street. I would never say anything bad about Ave. X or Y Road. It's just not fair to the people living on that street or in that neighborhood to be forced into a stereotype. I'm quite sick of getting a dirty condescending look when I give people my Machal address, especially when, as I've said, I get no parental help and support my 3 children with a full time job. As I've stated above, I also do not tour, have not been to America in 3 years, and fancy restaurants are reserved for our anniversary.

Again, I agree with your point. I do. But I would never say anything about a specific neighborhood or road. It's just not fair for the people who face a daily struggle of walking out of their houses and breaking the stereotype. The people who read what you post develop a certain idea of a certain area that they know nothing about, and subsequently I am looked down on for no reason other then hearsay. Please think before you broadcast. There is nothing wrong with stating your (true) point without naming streets.

ss321

Mon, Jan 12 2009, 11:30 am

Ok, I think you are misunderstanding my post. really embarrassed

Def. didnt mean to offend you or all those living in machal.
reread.

ss321 wrote:

. Luxurous 3 bedroom apartments (for a couple with no kids mindyou) in "Machal,"

I have nothing "against" people living there. I have nothing against people living nicely there either (within reason). I have a problem with 20 year olds "high lifing" it in apartments larger than what most israelis with 6 or more kids are accustomed to, and not taking the year (or more) of learning seriously, just doing it because its a "trend" and its "inspirational."
People name my neighborhood (Flatbush) all the time as being snobby. People name specific streets, specific shuls, etc. I didnt mean to offend you, I was just trying to make a point. I have no problem with MACHAL the street. I have a problem with people who move there with the mentality and attitude I described.

meirav

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 4:29 am

Mrs. K, we are not generalizing that all the people on Machal are floppies (love the word too!), but that most floppies live in areas such as Machal. Big difference. In fact, there are Israelis in Machal, too.

And while I don't live in an American neighborhood, I have been told by Americans in the US that I am probably living it up, and enjoying my honeymoon, etc. when I was living in a moldy apartment. So stereotypes can be hurtful, even though they are very convenient for discussion purposes.

SS321, I also find that is bothers me, although I don't feel jealous of people touring and expensive clothes, per se. I happen to think that too much gashmius is detrimental, but it isn't my place to tell people where to draw the line, because people have all kinds of backgrounds and circumstances, so it isn't the gashmius that's bothering me. Also, as I said before, people don't get half as passionate about issurei de'oraysa that others are over, so it must be something personal, and not the actual thing they are doing itself.

I think what bothers me is that they are living it up, while I am struggling, and we are both called "kollel couples in Israel." I think what's hurtful is that I don't feel I am getting the credit I deserve. I am being painfully honest here, and it bothers me that I feel this way.

What do you think?

ss321

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 6:46 am

meirav wrote:

I think what bothers me is that they are living it up, while I am struggling, and we are both called "kollel couples in Israel." I think what's hurtful is that I don't feel I am getting the credit I deserve. I am being painfully honest here, and it bothers me that I feel this way.

What do you think?

I agree with you. Look. B"H I come from a home where my parents were able to provide me with whatever I needed. They pay my tuition (>150K over 4 years). They are unbelievably generous. BUT I dont "disguise" it, I am willing to admit my parents help us out. When we DO get nice things, like new cars, nice clothes for our kids, etc, we pay for THOSE items ourselves. When DH was in kollel, there were certain things that sure, my parents wouldve been able to "afford" to "spoil" us with, but just werent appropriate. Did this mean when our entire family went away for Yom Tov, we stayed home? Of course not. But it did mean, if my parents and DH's parents were helping us out while DH was learning and I was in school (so we had no income), that money didnt go towards things like bugaboos or trips to Italy or whatever else they do over there. Do I have a bugaboo now? Yes. Have I been to Italy? yes. but on my own dime.

My husband learned for a couple of years. does that make us a "kollel couple?" I dont think so, because our lifestyle doesnt jive with what I think is "appropriate" for someone in KOLLEL. We thought it was an important foundation on which to start our marriage...yet, we watched movies (dont have a TV, I will admit that),we went away for Yom Tov. B"H we WERENT struggling, and I have SO much respect for those who do. And for that reason, I was wary to put myself in the same category as people like you - because you are 100% right - it diminishes the "impressiveness" of what you are able to pull off - because I also had a learning husband, but didnt have to sacrifice diddly squat.

So Yea, that is my problem too. Have Dior shoes and matching sunglasses. Buy your 6 month old daughter BabyDior shoes to match your own. Your husband can walk around in his YSL cuffed white shirts and Ferragamo shoes. You have the means? Go ahead - and gay gezunterheit. But dont tell everyone you are living as a "kollel family"/"kollel couple" in Israel so you can "experience" it, and its "inspirational" and blah blah blah. Because it is so far from the truth its pathetic.

ss321

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 7:09 am

meirav wrote:

I'm not really sure which side of the fence you're on lifestyle-wise, but I enjoy the way you express yourself.

I am not taking a side. The point is, for me to say "its not right for people to live with materialistic things" would be incredibly hypocritical, because I have alot of those things, and I had nice things growing up. BUT, I am of the firm belief that if you want to be in kollel, you "do it right." Quite frankly, I dont care what any of these floppy kids do, its their (parents) money and they are adults and can do as they wish, I just hate when they are all like "DH is in Kollel, and B"H its amazing...its so inspirational...so ruchniyusdik...such an amazing way to start a marraige..." Yea. Trips down to Eilat 3x/yr, Europe for a weekend getaway, bi or triannual trips home to Mommy and Tatty, designer clothes to no end, taking taxis to the finest restaurants daily, shopping on Kikar Hamedina, it sure sounds amazing to me too. but kollel? who ya fooling?

meirav wrote:

Really, I am not living the kollel life to get recognition. But a tiny part of me says "hey, they think THEY are doing the kollel thing? They should see me!"

Right. that is how I feel about people like you (not that I know you) too. I look at some of my friends who really sacrifice alot of the "luxuries" of american life, to move to Israel (and yes, most of their parnets do help them too-just not to the same "extent" as this craziness), live in a not-so-nice apartment, go to shiurim, or are in school, or WORK, while their husband spends a year or two learning. They dont WANT to come home every other month, because this is the life THEY ARE CHOOSING to live for now. That is entirely different, and I think all those young couples deserve alot of admiration and respect for their idealism maturity and for the sacrifices they make.

shalhevet

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 7:27 am

meirav wrote:

For two reasons:

Those generally frum and slightly compromising on Shabbos observance (a little borer on the side when no one's looking) are not advertising it, are not advertising 'we're frum but there's nothing wrong with not keeping Shabbos 100%'. They either don't know, or are keeping quiet.

Conspicuous consumption affects the entire community. Just as an extreme example: thirty or forty years ago if your son ripped his pants you patched them. Today, even as a kolel wife, I have to throw them out. Because no one patches pants. It is totally outside social norms. So I have to buy new ones. the same applies to simchas, gashmius standards in schools, yeshivas and sems; what clothes/ sheitels etc are acceptable and so on.

mimivan

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 7:37 am

shalhevet wrote:

meirav wrote:

I patch pants but do it on the inside with matching fabric so it doesn't really show. Wink

And an American friend thought I was strange for darning socks, but my MIL thought it was wasteful to buy a new pair...so yes, there is a culture difference...a big one.

There are some cultures or sub-segments that are the opposite...in some parts of my neighborhood, ( where it is moreIsraeli Sephardic ) if I use a whole teabag instead of a half it is Tsk! Tsk! wasteful...(but I like my tea strong so it is not wasteful...otherwise I'd drink two cups, but I'd rather not to have to explain)...I've been places where I've heard "Chaval! a whole teabag!"

I guess I live in an opposite from Yuppy situation. But that is okay...I respect their frugality...although when I'm in the "American section" I have to wear a different hat (or sheitel! LOL

)

amother

Tue, Jan 13 2009, 9:29 am

ss321 wrote:

meirav wrote:

I'm not really sure which side of the fence you're on lifestyle-wise, but I enjoy the way you express yourself.

meirav wrote:

Really, I am not living the kollel life to get recognition. But a tiny part of me says "hey, they think THEY are doing the kollel thing? They should see me!"

im just wondering b/c I know so many ppl like you but this is not the kind of question that you ask someone in real life. but, what is really the difference then between what you did here in america and what other couples are doing in israel? just as you don't feel that your "kollel years" were dimished by your gashmius why is it at all different? b/c you denied yourself a bugaboo?
don't get me wrong, I think kollel is an amazing thing to do, unfortunately dh and I couldn't do it- not b/c we didn't have the support but b/c of my dh's schooling. but this is something all of our siblings do and eventually they move on and get jobs and support this kind of lifestyle themselves, just as you claim you are doing now.