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High cost of jewish education and size of family
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 2:02 am
Yes, but:
anon wrote:
. Who's even thinking about fancy cars and vacations? I'm just thinking about not feeling or looking like a shmatte...is that unreasonable?

For most people here, I think, this sort of thing doesn't really come into play. Plenty of people feel and look like shmattas and no one cares.
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alpidarkomama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 3:20 am
We do all of our learning at home and out and about. It has been the best thing we ever decided to do. Our kids are at the very least keeping up with the kids in their same grade levels in day schools and are able to accomplish all the learning in half the time, leaving plenty of time for field trips, outdoor play, social activities (too many possibilities there to even count... I don't know why people worry about that!), science experiments, etc. I spend maybe $1-2K total on curricula and outside classes each year for my 4 kids. Of course, it's essentially a full-time job and things like clean bathroom floors get put on the back burner, but it's very gratifying work.

I love the orthonomics blog. That lady is very sharp, and has terrific insights into the economics of living a frum lifestyle. Homeschooling and financial alternatives to other common expenses are often-discussed subjects. It is hands-down my favorite blog.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 3:22 am
Isramom8 wrote:
C'mon, most people I know here in Israel are struggling with high tuition costs. You make sooooo much less money here. It's true that what we pay for 8 kids in gan and school is equal to what many in America pay for 2 kids, but proportionately, it's a very large portion of our budget.

Our kids go to: private gan expensive, an elementary school that isn't subsidized, cheder that charges, Bais Yaakov high school that is subsidized, seminary with dorm that is considered expensive, special needs yeshiva ketana expensive, and American yeshiva gedola expensive. Transportaion (expensive!) not included.

that may be true, but if you were to choose that they attend the local MMD school, it wouldn't cost nearly as much. Again, it comes down to "you get what you pay for". Someone coming to live in Israel because of tuition costs lichora wouldn't opt to pay for quality education, as long as the school were Jewish?
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 3:45 am
alpidarkomama wrote:
We do all of our learning at home and out and about. It has been the best thing we ever decided to do. Our kids are at the very least keeping up with the kids in their same grade levels in day schools and are able to accomplish all the learning in half the time, leaving plenty of time for field trips, outdoor play, social activities (too many possibilities there to even count... I don't know why people worry about that!), science experiments, etc. I spend maybe $1-2K total on curricula and outside classes each year for my 4 kids. Of course, it's essentially a full-time job and things like clean bathroom floors get put on the back burner, but it's very gratifying work.

I love the orthonomics blog. That lady is very sharp, and has terrific insights into the economics of living a frum lifestyle. Homeschooling and financial alternatives to other common expenses are often-discussed subjects. It is hands-down my favorite blog.


Homeschooling is a big expense, it means giving up an extra salary.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 3:49 am
grin wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
C'mon, most people I know here in Israel are struggling with high tuition costs. You make sooooo much less money here. It's true that what we pay for 8 kids in gan and school is equal to what many in America pay for 2 kids, but proportionately, it's a very large portion of our budget.

Our kids go to: private gan expensive, an elementary school that isn't subsidized, cheder that charges, Bais Yaakov high school that is subsidized, seminary with dorm that is considered expensive, special needs yeshiva ketana expensive, and American yeshiva gedola expensive. Transportaion (expensive!) not included.

that may be true, but if you were to choose that they attend the local MMD school, it wouldn't cost nearly as much. Again, it comes down to "you get what you pay for". Someone coming to live in Israel because of tuition costs lichora wouldn't opt to pay for quality education, as long as the school were Jewish?

You are assuming Mamad schools are not as good as private schools. This is not always the case, and when looking for a place to live, I think one of the criteria should be a good mamad in the area (I heard wonderful things about the mamad in Alon Shvut, and we still have the choice of at least two or three other private or semi private schools in our area). Also, according to my SIL Bays Yakov highschool costs less than what my parents paid for ulpana and they get less (less hours, less tiyulim, shabatonim, lunch, and activities, of course, with cut backs in the dati schooling systems by Yuli Tamir, many of these have been cut also in mamad schools).
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 4:00 am
my main point was that we here can opt to pay more, but don't necessarily have to, as opposed to the situation in the US. But, of course there are some excellent MMD schools. I didn't mean to say that all are not quality education. I guess that someone coming to Israel for that reason may very will choose their place to live on the basis of better schooling for less money.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 4:16 am
chanchy123 wrote:
alpidarkomama wrote:
We do all of our learning at home and out and about. It has been the best thing we ever decided to do. Our kids are at the very least keeping up with the kids in their same grade levels in day schools and are able to accomplish all the learning in half the time, leaving plenty of time for field trips, outdoor play, social activities (too many possibilities there to even count... I don't know why people worry about that!), science experiments, etc. I spend maybe $1-2K total on curricula and outside classes each year for my 4 kids. Of course, it's essentially a full-time job and things like clean bathroom floors get put on the back burner, but it's very gratifying work.

I love the orthonomics blog. That lady is very sharp, and has terrific insights into the economics of living a frum lifestyle. Homeschooling and financial alternatives to other common expenses are often-discussed subjects. It is hands-down my favorite blog.


Homeschooling is a big expense, it means giving up an extra salary.
but thats only if that spouse worked before they started to home school, if not then it is MUCH cheaper to do.
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alpidarkomama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 4:19 am
[/quote] Homeschooling is a big expense, it means giving up an extra salary.[/quote]

For me, it wouldn't work to work (besides just WANTING to be home!). I was a classroom teacher. If I had a full-time job, there would be higher tax rates, driving expenses (we only have one car now), childcare/tuition expenses, clothing expenses (I would have to dress a little nicer day-to-day), possibly cleaning lady expenses, etc., etc. I would basically come out to a net of $1,500 and a whole lot more stress. Instead, our days are relaxed and pleasant. I know it doesn't work for some, but it is a possibility for others.

Here's my rough math: $40K for teaching (not the best salaries around here!) - $8K in taxes - $2.5K in car costs (if we buy a 10-year-old car) - $.5K clothing costs - $25K tuition costs for 4 kids (assuming financial assistance!) - $2.5K for cleaning help. That leaves me about $1.5K... I can make that by teaching a 30-minute piano lesson 1x/week! Anyway... not interested in starting a work/home debate, but just pointing out that for many families homeschooling is NOT a big "expense" if potential salary is low compared to the other costs of outsourcing education/childcare.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 4:22 am
grin wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
C'mon, most people I know here in Israel are struggling with high tuition costs. You make sooooo much less money here. It's true that what we pay for 8 kids in gan and school is equal to what many in America pay for 2 kids, but proportionately, it's a very large portion of our budget.

Our kids go to: private gan expensive, an elementary school that isn't subsidized, cheder that charges, Bais Yaakov high school that is subsidized, seminary with dorm that is considered expensive, special needs yeshiva ketana expensive, and American yeshiva gedola expensive. Transportaion (expensive!) not included.

that may be true, but if you were to choose that they attend the local MMD school, it wouldn't cost nearly as much. Again, it comes down to "you get what you pay for". Someone coming to live in Israel because of tuition costs lichora wouldn't opt to pay for quality education, as long as the school were Jewish?


In the Talmud Torah books are much cheaper. Usually a Chumash, Mishna and Perek Gemora and a few workbooks for limudei chol. Also the tiyulim and such are much cheaper. Charedi schools are much more likely to give a discount to a large family.

My kids in the Chabad system paid much, much less. Two special yeshivot cost 1000 and 1200 respectively, the second with an amazing student faculty ratio, full limudei kodesh, professional courses, tutoring, chugim, PE, etc. This is dorm home every 2 weeks. When my ds did not show up the RY visited 3 times. Not get into the car and go three blocks but get to a small yishuv in the middle of nowhere surrounded by 5 Arab villages from north of Netanya.

The person saying mamad not only did not take hashkafa into consideration but also HS prices. Also, many, many mamad schools have additional limudei kodesh and the price of misrad hachinuch textbooks are hugely inflated. Ulpanot and yeshiva ketana/tichonit DL is way more expensive than any charedi option. And there are "name" schools, like Chorev, which get into ridiculous. In our yeshivos all of the Chabad yeshivas cost more or less the same and maybe 200-300 sh more for a special yeshiva. My guess is aguda is similar.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 4:52 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
but thats only if that spouse worked before they started to home school, if not then it is MUCH cheaper to do.

OP said they both work.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 6:03 am
grin wrote:
my main point was that we here can opt to pay more, but don't necessarily have to, as opposed to the situation in the US. But, of course there are some excellent MMD schools. I didn't mean to say that all are not quality education. I guess that someone coming to Israel for that reason may very will choose their place to live on the basis of better schooling for less money.


and a family in the us may only have the choice of one or 2 schools, neither of which may be very good, but they still have to pay far more money then they could possibley afford. You probably have far more choice in Israel.

Don't forget, people outside israel often send kids to schools that are not their hashkafa (not that thats such a bad thing)
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bella




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 8:15 am
I think the comment about extra kids leading to more help from the school was referring to scholarships/financial aid - rather than merely the "family discount" that some schools offer. Our kids now go to a school that is a bit higher in tuition than the Bais Yaakov and male equivalent here in our city. I think we have a mix of families paying full tuition and getting help. I'm in a fairly large city with B"H several schools to choose from. We fill out a scholarship form each year, adding to the basic tax forms with a letter explaining other expenses that are not reflected, such as costs for tutors, a devastating financial (as well as emotionally) issue of having to pay almost $10,000 for burying a destitute relative, emergency home repairs, etc. The financial committee has always taken these additional issues into account and has helped us a lot.

I also know that many of the schools in our city offer large tuition reductions for parents who teach in the school, if that's an option.

I think one of the keys to being able to financially help those in school who can't afford to pay full tuition is that those members of the community who might not be wealthy, but make a decent living remember to support our schools when they themselves do not have tuition burdens. Whether it's because they have not been blessed with children, or if their children are grown and able to support themselves. I have several friends who are older singles and have been working for years, and I always hope that even though it might not be an area in the front of their minds, that they have the schools in mind when allocating their tzedekah for the year. I think it's a community responsibility.

My husband and I joke about the day when we no longer have tuition to worry about - what kind of repairs we will do to our home, a trip to Eretz Yisroel, etc, but the reality is, that we are planning on continuing to support our schools even when our youngest is done. (ok, we might save a little for a trip!)
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Happy Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 1:58 pm
Quote:
Homeschooling is a big expense, it means giving up an extra salary.


This isn't necessarily true. There are costs inherent to a mother working - higher taxes, transportation, child care. Even before adding tuition to the figure, most mothers make very little after all of that. I stopped working when my third child was born, and it was very illuminating to see that our financial situation didn't change at all, because my earnings were eaten up by work related expenses involved (number one at the time being child care)!

Also, a mother who is at home can find ways to economize in lots of ways and actually improve her family's standard of living even while living on less money. We can live as comfortably on our modest income as most families we know with fewer kids, making 2 and even 3 times our income. Our kids get a good education, we have time together and aren't constantly stressing, and we have everything we need and more, BH.

I always find it ironic when people tell me how lucky I am that I can afford to stay home - most people could have my 'luck' it if they were willing to make the financial choices we make.
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Happy Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 2:07 pm
>>Does anyone feel that the high tuition price of a Jewish day school education is causing them to rethink the size of their family? I personally want another child (have three beautiful kids) but the cost of Day School education and the poor economy are causing us to rethink expanding our family and this is very hard to handle. <<

I know several people who told me that they've chosen to have fewer kids because of tuition pressures. Last year we went to a local frum accountant to do our taxes (who does taxes and financial counseling for many people in the community), who sees and speaks to a lot of people about their finances and choices. When he looked at our income, age, and family size, he told us we're very idealistic. I asked him what he meant, and he said there are drastically fewer families of our size now than there were even ten years ago. And he said that tuition is the best birth control the frum community could have come up with; while understanding why people make the choices they do, he is very concerned by how drastically this is affecting the community.


Last edited by Happy Mom on Wed, Jan 28 2009, 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alpidarkomama




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 27 2009, 11:29 pm
[quote="Happy Mom"]
Quote:
Also, a mother who is at home can find ways to economize in lots of ways and actually improve her family's standard of living even while living on less money. We can live as comfortably on our modest income as most families we know with fewer kids, making 2 and even 3 times our income.


That is so absolutely true!!!!! Many, many things... like having time to make bread at $0.50/loaf instead of buying it for $4. Add all these little things up and they can mean a HUGE cost savings. I fix a lot of clothes too instead of getting rid of them. It takes a rather large salary before there is truly a noticeable improvement in one's lifestyle.

I love these threads that discuss alternative ways of making a frum life work that aren't necessarily the well-beaten paths. There are many, many financial alternatives to what is typically considered normal, and it does not in anyway detract from living a life of torah.
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anon




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 28 2009, 12:00 am
Tamiri wrote:
Yes, but:
anon wrote:
. Who's even thinking about fancy cars and vacations? I'm just thinking about not feeling or looking like a shmatte...is that unreasonable?

For most people here, I think, this sort of thing doesn't really come into play. Plenty of people feel and look like shmattas and no one cares.


lol, I'm not sure if you meant to be funny, but this made me laugh.

To add to your point about the financial benefit of living in Israel....

I also mentioned mortgage costs in my post. From what I understand, there isn't a widespread expectation of owning property in Israel. Tons of families with a number of children rent apartments, and its completely commonplace. This is opposed to America where this a lot of pressure to buy a home.
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Emee




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 28 2009, 12:12 am
are there really places in america where kids would be refused an education based on an inability to pay? Maybe I am naive or live in an unbelievable city but in every school I have been in it was made quite clear that no child woudl be kicked out because of an inability to pay and arrangements are always made. Now I do know of one situation where a family was turned down because they had 0 income and 8 girls and the school (a small one) felt they couldn't handle the girls they had alot of issues that the school they wanted couldn't deal with and definitely not with 0 tuition however Bais yaakov woudl have most likely taken them.
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 28 2009, 12:40 am
anon wrote:

I also mentioned mortgage costs in my post. From what I understand, there isn't a widespread expectation of owning property in Israel. Tons of families with a number of children rent apartments, and its completely commonplace. This is opposed to America where this a lot of pressure to buy a home.

And THIS made ME laugh: In the U.S. you really don't "buy" a home. The bank does, and you keep paying and paying and paying the mortgage until you do own the home after 30 years, if you haven't refi'd 15 times, of course. In Israel, the mantra for Israelis is OWN OWN OWN. With, usually, 30-50% down minimum (and this is just in recent years, previously it really was 50% or more). I have no idea how they do it, but the fact is that, well, it's just the opposite of what you wrote.
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sped




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 28 2009, 3:26 am
I had a similar laugh! My parents always lived - and my mother still does - in a rented house and noone really blinks. Here in Israel, the feeling is youmust own.... In truth, many of my friends who rent and up having to move constantly, since few apartments are built for renting.
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anon




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 28 2009, 9:33 am
Tamiri wrote:
anon wrote:

I also mentioned mortgage costs in my post. From what I understand, there isn't a widespread expectation of owning property in Israel. Tons of families with a number of children rent apartments, and its completely commonplace. This is opposed to America where this a lot of pressure to buy a home.

And THIS made ME laugh: In the U.S. you really don't "buy" a home. The bank does, and you keep paying and paying and paying the mortgage until you do own the home after 30 years, if you haven't refi'd 15 times, of course. In Israel, the mantra for Israelis is OWN OWN OWN. With, usually, 30-50% down minimum (and this is just in recent years, previously it really was 50% or more). I have no idea how they do it, but the fact is that, well, it's just the opposite of what you wrote.


Scratching Head Is it that people in Israel buy apartments instead of houses? I think I assumed that everyone rented cuz they were living in apartments, and most people in america aren't buying apartments. Here, if someone is living in an apartment, they are usually renting, and if they are living in a house, then they usually "own" it. Or do I need to take my eyes out of Yerushalayim to see all the Israeli's who are living in houses?

That said, how on earth to people save enough money to put 50% down?? shock Yes, the cost may be less, but so are the salaries!
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