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Hishtadlus vs. the Abishter runs the velt



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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 3:53 pm
At what point do we say that we have to do hishtadlus and at what point do we just have to trust in hashem and let things fall as they will?
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StrongIma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 3:58 pm
we learn from Yosef Hatzadik and the Besht that it all depends on your real level of bitachon in H'. If you truly believe that it's enough for you to just knock on the door and then walk away for H' to provide for you with what's Divinely-ordained as coming to you, even that's enough.
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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 8:43 pm
bump
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 8:58 pm
from a personal point of view...if I feel I'm pushing something...if I sense some desperation...then I know it is a bitachon issue and it is time for me to step back..

the main measuring instrument is the seichel...It seems like a good idea to think through a situation calmly, even with someone else (a spouse a masphia) and work through all the ramifications to determine whether someone is really doing Hishtadlus...and once someone realizes that yes they are, they should stick to it and then leave the rest up to the Abishter..

It isn't easy to avoid pushing...especially in situations that davka require more seichel than pushing.

Reminds me of the first time I gave birth. I had no idea what I was doing. I thought I was supposed to push back in the contraction phase (yes, I was that ignorant) but when it came time to push, I said "I can't!" LOL
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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 9:02 pm
mimivan wrote:
from a personal point of view...if I feel I'm pushing something...if I sense some desperation...then I know it is a bitachon issue and it is time for me to step back..



This is so interesting...and it's really speaking to me. I seriously need to take a step back and have some more emunah, bitachon, etc.
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AlwaysGrateful




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 9:18 pm
We do "normal hishtadlus."

Dh and I often discuss this about various things in our lives. For example, we might decide that it isn't "normal hishtadlus" to get every single babyproofing device known to man. But it's "normal hishtadlus" to get some babyproofing devices. (We were discussing this recently.) Or it's not "normal hishtadlus" to make sure that you have three changes of clothes every time you go on a long car trip because you might be stranded on the side of the road for three days. However, if you're flying overseas...

I can't think of better examples, but there have been plenty recently. The Abishter runs the velt, but we have to do "normal hishtadlus."
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 10:15 pm
a story comes to mind in regard to a man who was in a boat that broke and was praying to Hashem not to drown ... another boat passes by to pick him up and he said don't worry Hashem will save me ... then comes a plane ... then a log ... eventually he succumbs to the water and drowns ... he complains to Hashem "I was relying on you to save me" Hashem replies "I sent you 3 different ways to save you but you didn't take any of them"

lesson here is that he needed to make some histadlus/effort to save himself ...

we need to try - but ultimately Hashem runs the world ...
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Lechatchila Ariber




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 17 2009, 11:42 pm
that story came to my mind greenfire as an example of how hishtadlus doesn't contradict with having bitachon. you can have bitachon but part of that bitachon is in the keilim that Hashem is giving you to help your situation.
It's not enough to have faith and ignore the keilim at your disposal.

That said, there are times when you've done all you humanely can and it's time to let G-d take over or accept that the situation the way it stands is what hashem wants for now and is a brocha no matter how it appears.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 18 2009, 1:31 am
mimivan wrote:
from a personal point of view...if I feel I'm pushing something...if I sense some desperation...then I know it is a bitachon issue and it is time for me to step back..

lately, I've seen that I need what seems to me to be "more than normal" hishtadlus for important things. Maybe my personal level of bitachon has gone down recently, but in any case, I see that sometimes some desperation may be in order.
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Butterfly




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 19 2009, 9:29 am
mimivan wrote:
from a personal point of view...if I feel I'm pushing something...if I sense some desperation...then I know it is a bitachon issue and it is time for me to step back..

the main measuring instrument is the seichel...It seems like a good idea to think through a situation calmly, even with someone else (a spouse a masphia) and work through all the ramifications to determine whether someone is really doing Hishtadlus...and once someone realizes that yes they are, they should stick to it and then leave the rest up to the Abishter..

It isn't easy to avoid pushing...especially in situations that davka require more seichel than pushing.


Good point, mimivan, and very well written. Thumbs Up

I especially noticed, many are very pushy when it comes to Shidduchim - especially coming from the *professional* Shadchanim..

Not saying that pushing doesnt work.. yes it does many times.. but not because one was so pushy and nagy Rolling Eyes
It's only becauase whatever is/was meant to happen, would have happened in any case!

We are obligated to do our hishtodlos/efforts, calmly, and with seichel, and thus Hashem will take care of the rest, imy'H Smile .
mimivan wrote:


It isn't easy to avoid pushing...especially in situations that davka require more seichel than pushing.

Reminds me of the first time I gave birth. I had no idea what I was doing. I thought I was supposed to push back in the contraction phase (yes, I was that ignorant) but when it came time to push, I said "I can't!" LOL


Rolling Laughter Rolling Laughter Rolling Laughter
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Butterfly




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 19 2009, 9:44 am
greenfire wrote:
a story comes to mind in regard to a man who was in a boat that broke and was praying to Hashem not to drown ... another boat passes by to pick him up and he said don't worry Hashem will save me ... then comes a plane ... then a log ... eventually he succumbs to the water and drowns ... he complains to Hashem "I was relying on you to save me" Hashem replies "I sent you 3 different ways to save you but you didn't take any of them" lesson here is that he needed to make some histadlus/effort to save himself ...

we need to try - but ultimately Hashem runs the world ...


In fact, the Beth Din Shel Maalah/Divine judgement paskened/ordered, he go to Gihenim.. shock
for not respecting the Mitzvah of Ushmartem *Maod* lenafshoseichem! / Take *ultimate* care of your body/health Exclamation
And especially, for the big sin of *deliberately* having himself killed. Scratching Head

I love this analogy, Greenie, Thumbs Up

we use it allot.. especially lately.. (family matters embarrassed )
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