Is this your parenting/disciplining style?

gryp

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 10:00 am

The mother of a 4-year-old girl tells her daughter to dress for school. The child replies, with defiance dripping from every syllable, "I don't want to, and I'm not going to!" The mother tells her that if she doesn't dress, and quick, she will go to school in her pajamas. The child dresses. And that's the end of it. Or is it?

"Did I do the right thing?" the mom inquires.

"Does she defy you about other things?"

"Oh," Mom replies. "All the time."

"Then in this case you achieved a short-term objective-she got dressed," I answered, "but you made no progress as regards the real problem."

"What's the real problem," Mom asks.

The real problem is this little girl's defiance of her mother's authority. In this case, Mom won a skirmish, but the war goes on. And it will go on and on and on until Mom "nukes" this little girl and puts an end to the war, once and for all. The problem is, the longer this war goes on, the worse it's going to get. A 4-year-old who has the nerve to tell her mother she's not going to dress for school may well become a 13-year-old who tells her mother to go jump in a lake and take a deep breath. This needs to be stopped-not for Mom's betterment, mind you, but for the child's. Research into parenting outcomes is clear that the best behaved children are also the happiest, most well-adjusted children. The research also tells us that the happiest, most well-adjusted kids have parents who love them without conditions and discipline them with power and purpose. The reason, then, that children should be well-disciplined, and therefore well-behaved, is not because it's easier to raise a well-behaved child (although it certainly is). The reason is that it is in the child's best interest, both in the short- and long-haul, to be well-behaved.

Before I answer Mom's question, I want to be clear on one thing: She handled the immediate situation in a right and proper fashion. To that point, Mom and I are on the same page. If need be, I'd have put said child and her clothes in the back seat of the car and set off for school, telling her that whether she was clothed or not, when we arrived at school, she was going in if I had to carry her in. When she arrived home from school that afternoon, I would have told her that as a result of her defiance that morning, she was going to spend the remainder of the day in her room and go to bed immediately after dinner.

And I would have looked her in the eye and said, "And this is the way it's going to be, my love. When you defy me, it will not matter whether you ultimately do what I tell you to do or not. You will be punished."

This little girl needs to know, as do many American children, that obedience is more than simply doing what one is told; it is doing what one is told without even the slightest display of defiance. Some people think this is too much to ask of a child, especially a child as young as 4. We know, however, that most children born before the 1960s (during which traditional parenting was demonized and replaced with "postmodern psychological parenting") were obedient by age 3. Even today, in underdeveloped countries that have not imported our dysfunctional parenting practices, children are obedient by age 3. In fact, it is too little, and too vital to the child's social and emotional health, not to ask.

sarahd

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 4:20 pm

I think it's a bit extreme to put a four year old child in her room from the time she comes home from school till bedtime. And

Quote:

"And this is the way it's going to be, my love. When you defy me, it will not matter whether you ultimately do what I tell you to do or not. You will be punished."

sounds unnecessarily harsh and scary to me.

I think there are other ways of eliciting obedience from children. It's all very nice to say that till the 60's children were raised in a certain way and let's go back to that way, but we have to realize that the generations indeed have changed and from what I hear you can't discipline children with such harshness today.

Nevertheless, it's certainly important that our children obey us and respect us. How to accomplish that?

In theory, if a parent expects to be obeyed he will be obeyed most of the time. If a child is raised with the understanding that parents (and all adults, for that matter) must be respected, then he will respect his parents, most of the time. If you're not sure of yourself or don't feel that you have authority over your child, he will defy you.

I have more to say on the subject, but I want to hear what others have to say.

Rochel Leah

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 4:34 pm

Well, in a way I agree with the article, that one should 'fix' the problem as a whole not just one incident...the punishment shouldnt be as harsh though..more fitting to the situation.

Well to gain obediance is a hard task, I think it depends on how you ask, and it is age appropraite. if you tell a child to do something that is beyond her then you cannot expect them to follow your commands..as well if they see that you respect your parents, olders and follow rules and that you praise them for their efforts and are understanding to their needs , they should be on the most part obediant.

Tefila

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 4:41 pm

Also remember then in those days people were excecuted or beheaded for going against a perticular king or government so society was raised to follow every letter of the law. Nowadays it is not like that... so too parenting syles have changed.
Though it is said the stricter the kids are raised with love the less they will attempt to go off the derech rather then the more leniant aproach!

gryp

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 4:45 pm

This person who is answering the situation is a famous psychologist. The typical modern psychologists also accuse him of being harsh. that was my first reaction as well, but as I read lots of other advice he gives, I see he's not harsh at all. he's actually pretty funny.

what you said sarahd- about if a parent expects to be obeyed, he will be obeyed- is one of his main themes. if you want to be an authority you have to take authority.

I am finding more excerpts from him that I think we'll all appreciate.

Tefila

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:19 pm

A bit long but found it interesting

25 WAYS TO TALK SO YOUR CHILDREN WILL LISTEN
A major part of discipline is learning how to talk with children. The way you talk to your child teaches him how to talk to others. Here are some talking tips we have learned with our children:

1. Connect before you direct. Before giving your child directions, squat to your child's eye level and engage your child in eye-to-eye contact to get his attention. Teach him how to focus: "Mary, I need your eyes." "Billy, I need your ears." Offer the same body language when listening to the child. Be sure not to make your eye contact so intense that your child perceives it as controlling rather than connecting.

2. Address the child. Open your request with the child's name, "Lauren, will you please..."

3. Stay brief. We use the one-sentence rule: Put the main directive in the opening sentence. The longer you ramble, the more likely your child is to become parent-deaf. Too much talking is a very common mistake when dialoging about an issue. It gives the child the feeling that you're not quite sure what it is you want to say. If she can keep you talking she can get you sidetracked.

4. Stay simple. Use short sentences with one-syllable words. Listen to how kids communicate with each other and take note. When your child shows that glazed, disinterested look, you are no longer being understood.

5. Ask your child to repeat the request back to you. If he can't, it's too long or too complicated.

6. Make an offer the child can't refuse. You can reason with a two or three-year-old, especially to avoid power struggles. "Get dressed so you can go outside and play." Offer a reason for your request that is to the child's advantage, and one that is difficult to refuse. This gives her a reason to move out of her power position and do what you want her to do.

7. Be positive. Instead of "no running," try: "Inside we walk, outside you may run."

8. Begin your directives with "I want." Instead of "Get down," say "I want you to get down." Instead of "Let Becky have a turn," say "I want you to let Becky have a turn now." This works well with children who want to please but don't like being ordered. By saying "I want," you give a reason for compliance rather than just an order.

9. "When...then." "When you get your teeth brushed, then we'll begin the story." "When your work is finished, then you can watch TV." "When," which implies that you expect obedience, works better than "if," which suggests that the child has a choice when you don't mean to give him one.

10. Legs first, mouth second. Instead of hollering, "Turn off the TV, it's time for dinner!" walk into the room where your child is watching TV, join in with your child's interests for a few minutes, and then, during a commercial break, have your child turn off the TV. Going to your child conveys you're serious about your request; otherwise children interpret this as a mere preference.

11. Give choices. "Do you want to put your pajamas on or brush your teeth first?" "Red shirt or blue one?"

12. Speak developmentally correctly. The younger the child, the shorter and simpler your directives should be. Consider your child's level of understanding. For example, a common error parents make is asking a three-year- old, "Why did you do that?" Most adults can't always answer that question about their behavior. Try instead, "Let's talk about what you did."

13. Speak socially correctly. Even a two-year-old can learn "please." Expect your child to be polite. Children shouldn't feel manners are optional. Speak to your children the way you want them to speak to you.

14. Speak psychologically correctly. Threats and judgmental openers are likely to put the child on the defensive. "You" messages make a child clam up. "I" messages are non-accusing. Instead of "You'd better do this..." or "You must...," try "I would like...." or "I am so pleased when you..." Instead of "You need to clear the table," say "I need you to clear the table." Don't ask a leading question when a negative answer is not an option. "Will you please pick up your coat?" Just say, "Pick up your coat, please."

15. Write it. Reminders can evolve into nagging so easily, especially for preteens who feel being told things puts them in the slave category. Without saying a word you can communicate anything you need said. Talk with a pad and pencil. Leave humorous notes for your child. Then sit back and watch it happen.

16. Talk the child down. The louder your child yells, the softer you respond. Let your child ventilate while you interject timely comments: "I understand" or "Can I help?" Sometimes just having a caring listener available will wind down the tantrum. If you come in at his level, you have two tantrums to deal with. Be the adult for him.

17. Settle the listener. Before giving your directive, restore emotional equilibrium, otherwise you are wasting your time. Nothing sinks in when a child is an emotional wreck.

18. Replay your message. Toddlers need to be told a thousand times. Children under two have difficulty internalizing your directives. Most three- year-olds begin to internalize directives so that what you ask begins to sink in. Do less and less repeating as your child gets older. Preteens regard repetition as nagging.

19. Let your child complete the thought. Instead of "Don't leave your mess piled up," try: "Matthew, think of where you want to store your soccer stuff." Letting the child fill in the blanks is more likely to create a lasting lesson.

20. Use rhyme rules. "If you hit, you must sit." Get your child to repeat them.

21. Give likable alternatives. You can't go by yourself to the park; but you can play in the neighbor's yard.

22. Give advance notice. "We are leaving soon. Say bye-bye to the toys, bye-bye to the girls…"

23. Open up a closed child. Carefully chosen phrases open up closed little minds and mouths. Stick to topics that you know your child gets excited about. Ask questions that require more than a yes or no. Stick to specifics. Instead of "Did you have a good day at school today?" try "What is the most fun thing you did today?"

24. Use "When you…I feel…because…" When you run away from mommy in the store I feel worried because you might get lost.

25. Close the discussion. If a matter is really closed to discussion, say so. "I'm not changing my mind about this. Sorry." You'll save wear and tear on both you and your child. Reserve your "I mean business" tone of voice for when you do.

Last edited by Tefila on Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tefila

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:27 pm

Ten Steps

We find ourselves setting limits within our relationships all our life. If we don't set limits, people, even those who love us, invade our space and run all over us... to the point we often end up resenting them.

The little angel sleeping in the other room is no exception. If you don't set limits with your baby, he/she will also invade your space and run all over you.

Mistakes will be made. Fortunately, there are no bad parenting habits that can't be broken when children are young. You can undo that demanding, whining, and temper-tantrum-laden behavior of the angel spoiled by parents with a lot of hard work at a later age. However, it's much easier not to let that behavior start by setting limits from the beginning.

Take the following steps to start setting limits with your child over six months of age:

1. First make certain all physical needs are met. Check for hunger, thirst, soiled diapers, overstimulation, or general fatigue. If none of those seem to be the problem, maybe your baby is bored. It happens to the best of us, you know.

2. Offer your child a few toys. Remember that small selection of toys is best. Young babies prefer familiar items and repetition. Too many toys at once is confusing. It is better to change the selection when your baby becomes bored than it is to heap the whole toybox in front of him at once.

3. Change his location. Let him have a view of the outdoors or even be outdoors if that is safe. Change from high chair to play pen.

4. Along these same lines, change the wall hangings in her room from time-to-time. This deters boredom and, better yet, stimulates the learning process. Would you like to look at the same things every day?

5. Get down on her level for a few seconds without picking her up. Laugh, sing a stanza, smile, touch, or say a few words.

6. If it is safe, walk off, telling her, "I need to be in the kitchen for a minute," or "I have wash to fold in the laundry."

7. Often your baby only needs to see your face or hear your voice to be calmed. Stick your head back in the room from time-to-time to assure baby that you are still there. Or, sing and talk to baby when you are out of sight.

8. Try to intervene with some distraction before your baby becomes frantic or is wailing at the top of his lungs.

9. Increase the time baby spends alone each day. Eventually you will have time to fold the clothes or go to the bathroom alone.

10. Do not leave your baby alone for an extended length of time, though, even when you can.

And remember that a baby who is quiet for a very long time could be enjoying entertainment of a dangerous or messy kind! Instead of enjoying the peace, check quickly!

You are training yourself to say no and set limits as much as you are training your baby to provide some of his/her own pleasures from life.

Being able to entertain himself gives your baby independence. Independence gives him self-esteem. Self-esteem is the most important gift you can give your child.

Last edited by Tefila on Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tefila

Tue, Dec 21 2004, 9:38 pm

Will I spoil my baby if I pick her up every time she cries?”

Babies need to be loved and held, so if you pick her up when she cries, you are certainly not spoiling her. She may cry more frequently because she knows you will hold her, and this may be a little demanding on you, but other than this concern there should be no reason for you not to pamper your baby to your heart’s content. However, once your child reaches the age of two you would do well to be a little less indulgent.

“I don’t like saying ‘no’ to my child.”
Parents feel that their children may start loving them less if they say ‘no’ too often, and tend to give in to their child’s every demand. This is a surefire way of spoiling your child. Instead of giving in to your child’s demand at once or instantly refuting it, find a middle path. Speak to your child about what he wants, ask him why he wants it, and if you feel his demand is justified, then let him know the reasons you believe your child can have what he wants. Let your child be aware of the cost, and let him know that he has to behave in a certain way before he gets it.

Thus, though it isn’t wise to refuse all your child’s demands because it does hinder their self-confidence, you should avoid fulfilling all your child’s demands immediately. Every once in a while you could ask your child to earn something that he wants in some way. Use gifts as incentives for your child to perform better, after all, that is the way life works and it helps if your child gets used to this at the outset.

Encourage your child to take up a part-time job when he is still young. While this is not so much the practice in India, it does wonders to develop a child’s personality and make him more independent. It also helps him realize the value of money. If you have a family business, you could take him to the office and make him help out by doing clerical work. If your teenager wants to work as a salesperson in a shop, your first instinct may be to discourage it, but let your child do so for a few months, over the summer vacation. Summer jobs should always be encouraged.

“I want my child to enjoy luxuries that I didn’t have.”
Many parents, especially those didn’t have many luxuries when growing up, want their children to enjoy the wealth that they worked so hard for. If you give your child everything he wants on demand, he will grow up believing the world owes him a living, and will find it hard to cope when realizes it doesn’t. “I resigned from my first job within four months, as I wasn’t very good at taking orders from others. I had the same problem in my second job, and I almost considered quitting the legal profession,” said Raj, who was born to affluent parents that satisfied his every demand. “Only after a lot of soul searching was I able to mould my personality and get my act together.”

“I avoid discussing money with my child.”
Speak to your children about money. Don’t try and fool them into thinking you have less or more than you actually have. Often parents refuse to discuss with their children, which is not necessarily a good idea. Simply passing a vague statement like “You don’t have to worry about it,” is not the best way of handling this situation.
Thats it for now Good Night LOL

even though I won't be going to sleep for awhile Wink

Last edited by Tefila on Wed, Dec 22 2004, 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:28 pm

Quote:

If you're not sure of yourself or don't feel that you have authority over your child, he will defy you.

I've heard the following said, and I think it's true:

years ago, parents may not have handled everything right, but they were mostly sure of themselves as parents

today, parents are confused, they go to classes, read books, hear lectures, and many don't know what they're doing, they try this technique and that approach, and are just plain insecure

the children raised by the parents who were mostly confident, turned out mostly okay

today's children have "issues" ...

to emphasize - it's not that the children raised by those confident parents are problem-free

anyway, I hope you get the point

Rivka

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 5:03 pm

The 4 year old that said no, we don't hear what went on before, therefore we cannot say that the parent's way of dealing with it was bad or didn't deal with the problem. So you can't just look at it face on and if you do it leaves holes in the story. I think children have to learn they cannot walk over you from the age of 1. You cannot back down with what you say to a child, no matter how much they cry or scream or kick especially in public. Often I have seen mothers in the food shop. The kid is crying s/he wants a sweet, mother says no. Kid then tries tantrum tactic, after a few seconds mother gives in and child gets what s/he wants and knows to do the same for next time because it works. Every kid has stages and yes at the begining of each stage they are testing the parent trying to see how far they can go, but you are the parent and the child is just that, a child, learning things and trying to grasp and understand the world around them and how it works. By age 4 they can talk and express themselves, so maybe simply asking why are they not getting dressed may give the parent more understanding. Kids NEED discipline, those who spare the rod spoil the child...I am not saying to hit, but discipline is like a rod.

Yael

Fri, Dec 31 2004, 12:51 pm

Quote:

so maybe simply asking why are they not getting dressed may give the parent more understanding

thats always a good idea.
my little brother hates taking showers I asked him why he said b/c he's cold when he comes out. so a new solution get dressed before he comes out.
Levi refuses to stand in the bath so I can wash him. I used to get frustrated with him, until I asked him why he said he's cold when he stands. now I get it!! so I pour warm water on him the whole time so he doesnt get cold.

yehudis

Sun, Jan 02 2005, 1:11 am

Please don't jump on me for what I am about to say, because I didn't make it up. It is part of our tradition, which is way older than the sixties parenting style.

Punishment should be the last thing to try in the parents' toolbox. Only if all else fails a parent may and should resort to punishment. There are other ways to achieve obedience. See Rabbi Keleman's To Kindle a Soul, Miriam Adahan's Raising Children to Care, Rabbi Orloweck's My Child, My Disciple, and many other chinuch books and tapes.

Harsh punishment without so much as a warning is not only cruel, but unproductive. It may work while the child is young, but as soon as she becomes a teenager she'll rebel. Again, this is not modern psychology. I read this in a Jewish chinuch book. I can't remember which one, but probably one of the above.

Also, in order to help a child correct her behavior we have to understand where she is coming from and why she is acting this way. Age 4 is a difficult time for children, when they try to establish independence from their parents. (There are 3 ages when children rebel: 2 -- against the mother; 4 -- against both parents; teens -- against the society.) This is not to say that disrespect towards parents should be ignored -- of course not. But we have to understand how hard it is for the child to act respectfully at this age. Empathy was not invented by psychologists either. See Rabbi Abraham Twersky's Positive Parenting.

And I agree with what other people have said, that when children act disrespectully, it's probably because the parents are sending them subconscious messages that it is OK. Also, if the parents talk disrespectfully to each other that could be a factor. Or is there is another relative, such as a grandmother or a grandfather, who talks disrespectfully to a parent in the child's presence. Not that anything could be done about it, but...

Children are very good at sensing when a mother is or isn't sure of herself when she tells them to do something. I see it all the time with my children -- when I say no, they listen. But when I say something like, "Hmm, I don't really like what you are doing. Maybe you should do something else," they'll just ignore me. I know I shouldn't say this at all, but being that I am not a perfect parent yet Smile

, sometimes I do. I'm working on it.

Pickle Lady

Sun, Jan 02 2005, 8:56 am

I did not like the first story. I did not appreciate looking at the parent-child relationship as a battle and a war to be won. The above parenting style that Yehudis mentioned is the way the I am approaching parenting. I had once read somewhere (frum source) that a child will respect you if you respect them. I think thats very true.

Hate to say this but for me the last place I will seek parenting advice is a psychologist or a doctor. I had to learn my lesson the hard way. Medical doctors gave me such bad adivce in the past, afterwards I learned my lesson. I truly take thier advice with a grain of salt especially the so called famous ones.

Last edited by Pickle Lady on Sun, Jan 02 2005, 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Sun, Jan 02 2005, 9:09 am

the only point in the story was that the child was purposely defiant to test the parent.

what should be done in this situation for this age child?

this psychologist's only point is to encourage us to be confident parents with consistent parenting.

if not it creates many more problems between the child and the parent.

Rivka

Tue, Jan 18 2005, 4:48 pm

I agree in respecting your children because they inturn will respect you and not just because they have to, they will do it because they want to, so it will be minus the grunts and contempt.
My son already is pretty independent, I let him be independent but there is a limit at his age, he knows the limit now and if he steps beyond that then he loses his little independency. For example walking with me instead of sitting in the shopping trolley or his buggy. I have learnt you cannot say "no" all the time, because then it doesn;'t mean anything and then it is more likely the child or teen will not listen.

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 6:23 pm

In theory the answer is quite simple : You need to pick your battles. Whatever is important to you needs to be done when and how you want it. But at the same time, you can not make EVERYTHING a power trip for you. Children are not the servants of your castle, but at the same time they need to learn that your word is final. You can discuss and explain reasons and teach them why it is good for them, but at the end of the day, whether or not they choose to accept it is irrelevant. But stick to that for the biggies- like getting dressed at all, not whether or not the particular clothes match.

In reality, it is harder...

Motek

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 6:35 pm

yehudis wrote:

Again, this is not modern psychology. I read this in a Jewish chinuch book.

plenty of the Jewish chinuch books are full of modern psychology

Quote:

(There are 3 ages when children rebel: 2 -- against the mother; 4 -- against both parents; teens -- against the society.)

anything in Torah that backs this up?

then we have one poster writing:

Quote:

I did not appreciate looking at the parent-child relationship as a battle and a war to be won.

and another poster who writes:

Quote:

You need to pick your battles.

I don't think parents raising children in the 70's and earlier, thought in terms of battles.

Tefila

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 7:32 pm

Quote:

I don't think parents raising children in the 70's and earlier, thought in terms of battles.

But we are not in the 70's or earlier Confused

So now we live in this day and age with kids born to parents who were born and bred in this day and age, so we act accordingly Wink

Motek

Tue, Mar 29 2005, 8:06 am

In an interview with the administrator of Manhattan High School for Girls, Mrs. Milka Weisz said, “I had grown up in a European home. I was parented with strong, defined boundaries. This is how we brought up our children, as well. They are therefore well-adjusted, and wholesome, bli ayin hara. My children always knew what to expect in our home, and that my husband and I loved them. If one of us said something, we kept to our word. I meant what I said, and my children knew it.

Milka recalled one Labor Day, taking the children in the car on a one and a half hour drive to a certain shopping mall which had a particular clothing outlet. “I told them to behave in the car, and warned them that if they stepped out of line, we would go home.

“Just as we were about to turn into the parking lot of the mall, one of my children did something unacceptable. ‘We’re going home right now,’ I told them. I felt terrible. I wanted one of them to raise a sweet voice in protest, to give me a chance to retract. But nobody said a word. I turned the car around and went home. I am a principled mother.”

***
bold is mine
ah, a mother I respect!

1stimer

Tue, Mar 29 2005, 9:13 am

there is something called 'the punishment threshold'

when a kid is young enuf, just a look from mommy is punishment enuf. but then the kid touches the hot stove, so u give him a smack on the hand, now a look isn't enuf coz kid learns if it really bothers mum I get a smack. etc.