Juicy parts of the megillah...!

amother

Fri, Mar 03 2006, 5:19 am

1. Esther's relationship with Achashveirosh was not consensual. In fact she had to live in a palace full of pagans practicing savagery and questionable practices. The question still remains; what happens to Esther AFTER?

2. On a tangent, but mentioned on this thread: A Kohain may not marry someone who has had relations with a gentile, but there are EXCEPTIONS, so a Rav must be consulted. It's not one rule across the board.

3. It is a misconception that Esther was Mordechai's niece. She is the daughter of Avichayil, the UNCLE of Mordechai, which makes her, his cousin, and he adopted her as his daugther. When it says "bas," it can be read as "bayis," which indicates that she is his wife (a term used in Talmud.)

This is from askmoses.com.

Tefila

Fri, Mar 03 2006, 11:59 am

Somewhere like another poster said too, I must thouroughly check b/4 I get hit on the head Banging head

it says she actually married Mordechai before she entered the Kings Palace. ANd as far as I know did not recieve a get

I am so firm about what I read or learned that I have not gone as amother Tongue Out

but I will check for you all give me a few days Smile

Also the halachos that apply to a Jew are not the same as to a [gentile] unless one has a child with that man and then the halachos changed and she did. So not sure..... as I said again I will look it up. By the way where's motek we need her and her sources Very Happy

Gr it's great to have you on here so don't take notice Tongue Out

Torah like this was given to us all and if children do go on here shock

Better they should learn the way it was tthen go to other sites which are worse and do nothing for yiras hashem Wink

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 12:04 pm

carrot - what's up with you? Sad

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Is that Pshat or just Meforshim / Midrashim?

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I always felt bad for Vashti. Achashverosh definitely would fall into the category of abusive husband

Vashti was evil and it was the other way round, she abused him! She let her husband know that SHE was the one with royal blood and he was king thanks to her. Feeling inferior, he made the 6 month feast (!?) to boost his low self-esteem.

some sources:

The Gemara Megiloh 12b relates that Achashveirosh commanded that Vashti be brought to him in this public gathering naked. She and Achashveirosh both intended to commit immoral acts. Hashem punished her by either having leprosy cover her body or by having a tail grow - because the angel Gavriel "ahsah lah zanav" — "made her grow a tail."

The Rambam explains that the tail grew from her forehead. Alternatively, he says that the tail is not to be taken literally, but rather, that it is an allusion to her suddenly menstruating heavily. He adds that "zonov," a tail, has the same mathematical value as "nidoh."

Ch. 1, v. 12: "Vatmo'ein hamalkoh" - And the queen refused - The Gemara Megiloh 12b relates that Hashem punished Vashti by either having leprosy cover her body or by having a tail grow. She refused to appear in public and sent a message of derision back to Achashveirosh, saying that her father was capable of imbibing 1,000 glasses of alcoholic beverage, while Achashveirosh, a former horse attendant, lost his head figuratively by drinking just a little of the golden brew. She, in turn, lost her head literally.

Last edited by Motek on Sun, Mar 05 2006, 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 12:05 pm

quote]I guess it was all a big miracle that she looked beautiful in Achashverosh's eyes.[/quote]

The Gemara (Megillah 13a) says, "Esther was of greenish complexion (like a myrtle). However, G-d endowed her with a ingratiating kindness." This made her appear beautiful in the eyes of Achashveirosh and all the people (Rashi).

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It makes you wonder, did Achashveirosh really miss Vashti the next morning

Achashveirosh really did not want Vashti killed, and in fact he regretted it afterwards.

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 12:08 pm

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"He remembered Vashti, and what she had done, and what had been decreed upon her." (2:1)

QUESTION: The Gemara (Megillah 12b) says that this refers to the Heavenly decree against Vashti for causing the Jewish girls to disrobe and work for her on the Shabbos. Why did she want them to violate Shabbos and why was her punishment meted out necessarily on Shabbos?

ANSWER: Cyrus (Koresh), King of Persia gave the order that the Beis Hamikdash, which had been razed by Nevuchadnezzar, should be rebuilt. Two years afterward, Achashveirosh, King of the vast Persian Empire, put a halt on the rebuilding. He did this under the influence of Queen Vashti, granddaughter of Nevuchadnezzar. She had furiously bellowed "Why are you allowing the rebuilding of what my grandfather destroyed?" (See Midrash Rabbah 5:2, Isaiah 45.)

Cognizant that in merit of properly observing Shabbos the redemption would come, (Jerusalem Talmud, Ta'anit 1:1) Vashti did not allow Jewish women to wear their nice clothing on Shabbos, which is a way of honoring Shabbos. Moreover, she forced them to actually violate it, by performing work. She anticipated that once the women stopped keeping Shabbos, they would influence the men to follow suit. Hence, the Jews would remain in exile and the Beit Hamikdash would not be rebuilt.

Hashem's way of punishment is midah keneged midah — measure for measure. Since Vashti stripped the clothing of the Jewish girls and caused them to desecrate Shabbos, and Shabbat is known as Shabbos Hamalkah — Shabbos the Queen (Shabbat 119a) — hence, on the Shabbos, as she celebrated her reign as Queen, she was stripped of her title malkah — Queen — and put to death.

taken from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org.....d.htm

excellent source - read and enjoy!

carrot

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 6:17 pm

Motek wrote:

carrot - what's up with you? Sad

I'm just thinking... shock

If Vashti was disreputed (hoping that's a word - or at least people know what I'm trying to say) and DEAD and in other words totally powerless by the end of the Megilla story - then why couldn't her evilness be put into P'shat?

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Happens to be, she WAS the one with royal blood. Maybe if he would have treated her respectfully and allowed her a fair share of power she would not have tried to assert herself against him. But being that the situation was basically squared against her, and she was the powerless one, I don't know how you can call her abusive.

It's pretty pathetic to have to make a six month feast to boost your self esteem. If l'havdil ch'v etc. my husband would feel a need to boost his self-esteem by making even a one month feast, I would personally find it very hard to respect him.

Yes abuse often (always?) comes from insecurity but that does not mean the other spouse is at fault.

And I don't think even Paris Hilton who loves to show off and flaunt her body would appreciate a demand to appear naked for the pleasure of her fiance of the month and his beer buddies.

I think the fact that he killed her pretty much proves that he was the abusive one between them.

What was Achashverosh's official reasoning? That since she disobeyed him now all the women will disobey their husbands. WELL GOOD FOR THEM! Marriage is not a master/slave relationship. Women are people too and I cannot imagine anything more demeaning than being called to appear naked.

Sorry, she should have killed him before he took over so much power and taught all the husbands of Shushan that wives are not strippers.

I can totally understand why some people name their daughters Vashti.

P.S. Thank you Rivk. I didn't know the source, it was just something that I remembered seeing somehere.

Motek

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 6:31 pm

carrot wrote:

fiance of the month and his beer buddies.

Women are people too and I cannot imagine anything more demeaning than being called to appear naked.

you seemed to have missed sources that were quoted

Vashti WANTED TO APPEAR NAKED! She LIKED THE IDEA and was only prevented from doing so by a miracle!

Achasheveirosh was not interested in killing her as he loved her and Memuchan twisted him around his finger and ...

"just thinking" - I'm all for thinking and questioning if it's done with respect for Torah values (by those who were thus educated)

Tefila

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 6:37 pm

And here I thought she vashti was punished b/c she forced the jewish girls to commit s-xual indecent acts for her and other womens pleasure humiliating them etc etc.

In her own female pleasure party so to speak so when Achashveirosh whom she despised asked her to come she was willing but Hashem made a Nes and she felt so unconfidant some say she even went thru a pysycological something or other that she noticed how far from perfect se was. Hashem made the nes .
So perhaps women then were treated like 2 cents but she was a Queen remember and men worshiped her so she loved it. Haman disliked her with venom b/c she wasn't interested in him she shunned him. As long as she could have her own lustful party which incl torturing and humiliting Jewish children it was a great sport for her. How anyone can call their dd vashti or feel sorry for such a women is well...... it's beyond me Confused

carrot

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 8:36 pm

No, I haven't. I've been reading the Megilla.

I'm wondering: Why doesn't the Megilla make it clear why Vashti deserved to be beheaded? Why do we have to turn to Midrashim to find out why we should dislike her? It's almost like she HAS to be the Wicked Witch who deserves a horrible death. After we're all clear that we hate her, we dig up clues to justify her death.

It's not that I don't respect Midrashim. It's just that for most things you can find Midrashim both ways, and I don't see anything wrong with trying to get your own first impression from Pshat before turning to Midrashim to tell you how to understand everything.

I find this particular exploration especially illuminating and important davka because we DO live in a time with a lot of "feminist" messages. So we have to dig out what is wrong-feminist and what is Torah-feminist. I think there probably are some relevant clues to this question in the Megilla and I wonder what they are.

Maybe a good way of wording the question is: Because of her evil habits Vashti was deserving of death - but was Achashverosh justified in killing her for the official reasons given? Why or why not?

You can't just take Medrash and ignore Pshat, right? If Pshat makes no mention of certain things and lengthy mention of other things - doesn't that tell you something? (Why did Mordechai and Esther write down certain things and not others?)

Compared to most other parts of Tanach there are actually a lot of women in this story, and the main heroine is a woman. So I think it would be a good place to learn about the topic of "women" - call it feminism if you want.

youngmom

Sun, Mar 05 2006, 8:49 pm

carrot wrote:

Quote:

It's not that I don't respect Midrashim. It's just that for most things you can find Midrashim both ways, and I don't see anything wrong with trying to get your own first impression from Pshat before turning to Midrashim to tell you how to understand everything.

Rashi actually explains the Pshuto Shel Mikrah because sometimes it's hard for us to understand exactly what the Posuk is trying to tell us. I think that much of the story is in the text itself but Meforshim point it out to us.

Ex. Rashi points out that Achashverosh was angered by Vashti not just because of her refusal but because she said embarrassing and degrading things to Achashverosh. It doesn't say this straight out in the Posuk but if you look in the Posuk it seems strange that Achashverosh was so mad over just being refused. Thus, Rashi explains the above...
There are so many such examples. We just have to know what to look for. But, it's all there (or most of it, at least).