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Not frum family - shabbos meals etiquette (long)
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 6:51 am
Some background - we are part of an OOT kollel, and often have people over who are either interested in becoming frum or are on the way already. Usually it’s very nice and gives *us* chizzuk because it makes us feel needed and helpful to others. There is one family that started coming for meals to various kollel families about a year and a half or so ago…..they REALLY enjoy coming (they’ve said it numerous times, and we see the impact it’s made on them – they don’t drive on shabbos, buy only kosher food now etc). The wife is very friendly/talkative, she calls everybody, remembers all the kids’ birthdays (not just actual birthdays but for ex my baby was born on the 30th day of a particular month so every month on the 30th she calls me to wish my baby happy birthday!!!) and in general behaves like she is our best friend. They have 3 kids – 24 year old, 13 year old and a 5 year old. The older two almost never come for meals when they do come to the community but once in a while they do.

Now I really need someone to help me dan lekaf zechus these people because it’s driving me crazy. Whenever they come over for meals (which can be quite often when the weather is nice) they eat A TON. And I mean, a ton – take 2nds and 3rds, feeling like they need to finish everything on the table. It got to a point that last time they came I made sure to put some of every dish on serving plates to serve and put the rest in the fridge with no intention to refill. Now, we have guests constantly so I know what is normal for a company of 2 adults and one child to eat and this is abnormal. Last time they came the husband was coming late – after the fish course. As I was about to clear the fish off the table, the wife says – can I please have a clean plate for my husband everything is so delicious and I want him to try – and she proceeded to pile fish and salads on the plate. shock I was so put off by that.

They NEVER bring anything when they come (not even a bottle of wine etc). I don’t know why it bothers me so much but I think it’s SO rude. BH we are not starving and even though it is expensive to always feed shabbos guests I don’t think their company will break our budget. However, some other families in the kollel are really struggling and I think it’s disgusting for these people to shnor off of them. The husband has a good job (the wife doesn’t work, so it can’t be that bad) and I have no reason to believe they are going hungry.

Please help me understand and try to be more accepting because I am becoming more resentful.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 6:55 am
maybe they just have big appetites?

I guess you will just have to serve individual plates when they come.

thye sound like nice people but thoughtless.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 6:57 am
also, when they come, make inexpensive food. eg lots of kugel and rice or whatever, and put that out on serving plates, and put things like chicken or meat on individual plates.

I don't know, some people just eat more then others.

I make homemade challa and people tend to stuff themselves on that so they are not starving for other food.
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:01 am
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Raisin. I don’t think the issue is their appetite, it’s the fact that they think we (and the other families) are a free restaurant or something. If they are THAT hungry why not eat before they come so they are not starving? Whenever I am a guest somewhere I always feel bad taking something more than once…..whatever I am just annoyed Rolling Eyes
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pinktichel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:10 am
I find that people who aren't used to all that food want to try everything. That being said, my guests are usually stuffed after the first course and tend to take less of the other food. They have now started making PSA announcements at the table to warn the newbies about the rest of the food that's coming!

I noticed one of our guests (thin as a string bean) eating about 5 pieces of fish. I was glad he liked it! Like Raisin said, some people are just hungrier/bigger eaters than most.

What I do find disturbing is that a family who comes regularly never contributes. It would be nice if they would bring some fruit, a bottle of wine, flowers. Anything.

Edited to add: I think Raisin's idea of plating the food is a great one. I would definitely do it for the main course and give each person a piece of fish for the first course. I wouldn't plate the salads though.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:15 am
Accept their quirks. When they come, that's how they are.

Make what you can afford. Can you ask them to bring somethng, maybe the wine and the dessert ?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:25 am
sounds like they enjoy coming to you and part of that enjoyment is how much food you have ... eating is a social activity you know ... especially when you invite someone for a meal ...

they may lack some etiquette if they never bring anything ... but I should think it's not intentional ...

I would take it as a compliment that they love coming to you and enjoy the food as well ...

I personally like my own food and if I go out it's for the company ...
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:32 am
pinktichel wrote:
I find that people who aren't used to all that food want to try everything. That being said, my guests are usually stuffed after the first course and tend to take less of the other food. They have now started making PSA announcements at the table to warn the newbies about the rest of the food that's coming!

I noticed one of our guests (thin as a string bean) eating about 5 pieces of fish. I was glad he liked it! Like Raisin said, some people are just hungrier/bigger eaters than most.

What I do find disturbing is that a family who comes regularly never contributes. It would be nice if they would bring some fruit, a bottle of wine, flowers. Anything.

Edited to add: I think Raisin's idea of plating the food is a great one. I would definitely do it for the main course and give each person a piece of fish for the first course. I wouldn't plate the salads though.


but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.

chocolate moose wrote:
Accept their quirks. When they come, that's how they are.

Make what you can afford. Can you ask them to bring somethng, maybe the wine and the dessert ?


they are a "kiruv" family you know? I wouldn't feel comfortable asking them to bring something. Especially if no other familiy asks them.

greenfire wrote:
sounds like they enjoy coming to you and part of that enjoyment is how much food you have ... eating is a social activity you know ... especially when you invite someone for a meal ...

they may lack some etiquette if they never bring anything ... but I should think it's not intentional ...

I would take it as a compliment that they love coming to you and enjoy the food as well ...


I think there is a big difference between coming for the company and enjoying the food and stuffing your face just because it's free. Like I said we have lots of company, and some people are big eaters yet I never got this feeling that people eat as if they haven't eaten in days.

I guess I am just really annoyed and I need to either get over myself or take a break from having them.
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NotInNJMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:37 am
amother wrote:
pinktichel wrote:
I find that people who aren't used to all that food want to try everything. That being said, my guests are usually stuffed after the first course and tend to take less of the other food. They have now started making PSA announcements at the table to warn the newbies about the rest of the food that's coming!

I noticed one of our guests (thin as a string bean) eating about 5 pieces of fish. I was glad he liked it! Like Raisin said, some people are just hungrier/bigger eaters than most.

What I do find disturbing is that a family who comes regularly never contributes. It would be nice if they would bring some fruit, a bottle of wine, flowers. Anything.

Edited to add: I think Raisin's idea of plating the food is a great one. I would definitely do it for the main course and give each person a piece of fish for the first course. I wouldn't plate the salads though.


but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.



I've seen wives do this (ie. rebbetzin types, THE balebustas, etc.) and don't find it strange at all.
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pinktichel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:39 am
I don't think it's strange to fill up a plate for your Dh if he's going to be late.

OP, it depends how big the plates are and how much you consider to be a lot. I know someone who loves gefilte fish. My mother always used to plate the fish on Shabbos. When I was single and she came for a meal, I asked my mother to put a serving plate in the middle so she wouldn't have to feel uncomfortable asking for more.

I think your idea of taking a break is a good one.

Sometimes guests, especially difficult ones, make things very stressful and I think it's smarter to take a break than be resentful the whole time they're there. People do pick up on things even when we tried hard to cover up our feelings. That's the last thing you want.

It sounds like you're doing great work with your community. Hatzlacha!
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:45 am
amother wrote:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Raisin. I don’t think the issue is their appetite, it’s the fact that they think we (and the other families) are a free restaurant or something. If they are THAT hungry why not eat before they come so they are not starving? Whenever I am a guest somewhere I always feel bad taking something more than once…..whatever I am just annoyed Rolling Eyes
OP, take it from a guest who you'd probably hate to have... I have a massive appetite. I assume that when someone invites me, especially if its not a first time, they know about my massive appetite, and I expect them to prepare accordingly and not expect me to eat at home. If I have to eat at home, I'd rather not go out. Meaning, make cheap stuff that I can fill up on, like a previous poster said. I try to not fill up on expensive stuff, but if that is the only food out, what am I supposed to do- go hungry? Like I rarely will have a second peice of fish or chicken, but I assume a vegetable salad is cheaper, so you wouldn't mind me filling up on it.
And put out on the table only as much food as you are willing to have eaten. Dont get mad when people eat the food that you put out- people assume that whatever you put out you expect to be eaten. If I plan on serving something the next day, I set aside what I want for tomorrow before putting the food on the table. And in fact, I actually get a little offended if the food I put out isnt finished- it means the people probably didnt like my food so much.
Its not called shnorring to eat until you are not hungry. Its normal. if you have a hard time with that, then don't invite these people. But to invite them and to expect them to eat a full meal at home first so they arent "shnorring" from you is just wrong. Better not invite them if thats your attitude.

PS- I always bring gifts when going away.
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:46 am
NotInNJMommy wrote:
amother wrote:
pinktichel wrote:
I find that people who aren't used to all that food want to try everything. That being said, my guests are usually stuffed after the first course and tend to take less of the other food. They have now started making PSA announcements at the table to warn the newbies about the rest of the food that's coming!

I noticed one of our guests (thin as a string bean) eating about 5 pieces of fish. I was glad he liked it! Like Raisin said, some people are just hungrier/bigger eaters than most.

What I do find disturbing is that a family who comes regularly never contributes. It would be nice if they would bring some fruit, a bottle of wine, flowers. Anything.

Edited to add: I think Raisin's idea of plating the food is a great one. I would definitely do it for the main course and give each person a piece of fish for the first course. I wouldn't plate the salads though.


but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.



I've seen wives do this (ie. rebbetzin types, THE balebustas, etc.) and don't find it strange at all.


I know what you mean, and it's usually ok when it's not a whole plateful especially when there was other food coming. I myself have taken a piece of cake or something small like that from a party home to my husband. But if my husband was coming late to a meal it wouldn't cross my mind to fill up a plate for him after the fish course - he will eat challah and whatever other food that was coming afterwards (meat, sides, dessert etc)
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:48 am
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Raisin. I don’t think the issue is their appetite, it’s the fact that they think we (and the other families) are a free restaurant or something. If they are THAT hungry why not eat before they come so they are not starving? Whenever I am a guest somewhere I always feel bad taking something more than once…..whatever I am just annoyed Rolling Eyes
OP, take it from a guest who you'd probably hate to have... I have a massive appetite. I assume that when someone invites me, especially if its not a first time, they know about my massive appetite, and I expect them to prepare accordingly and not expect me to eat at home. If I have to eat at home, I'd rather not go out. Meaning, make cheap stuff that I can fill up on, like a previous poster said. I try to not fill up on expensive stuff, but if that is the only food out, what am I supposed to do- go hungry? Like I rarely will have a second peice of fish or chicken, but I assume a vegetable salad is cheaper, so you wouldn't mind me filling up on it.
And put out on the table only as much food as you are willing to have eaten. Dont get mad when people eat the food that you put out- people assume that whatever you put out you expect to be eaten. If I plan on serving something the next day, I set aside what I want for tomorrow before putting the food on the table. And in fact, I actually get a little offended if the food I put out isnt finished- it means the people probably didnt like my food so much.
Its not called shnorring to eat until you are not hungry. Its normal. if you have a hard time with that, then don't invite these people. But to invite them and to expect them to eat a full meal at home first so they arent "shnorring" from you is just wrong. Better not invite them if thats your attitude.

PS- I always bring gifts when going away.


Amother, thank you for your post, it was good to hear your perspective and gave me food for thought (no pun intended Twisted Evil ).
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 7:50 am
wow, I hope my guests are not eating tiny portions just to be polite. I eat the same amount of food (you would probably think I have a large appetite) when I am at home eating food I have cooked, in a resturant, or at someone elses house. (though I almost never eat by others peoples homes)

of course if the hostess bought out a delicious cream sponge chocolate cherry cake with exactly 10 slices and there are 10 people at the table I would use my seichel and not take 3 peices. likewise with chicken, fish and so on. But kugel or salad or challa? if there seems to be plenty I am not that shy.

(btw as the hostess I often put aside a peice of chicken for me in case the type I like disappears fromt he serving dishes
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SomebodyElse




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:00 am
Some people like to eat, and they probably really like your cooking. They may also have the idea that they're supposed to finish whatever you put out.

When I first started going to shabbos meals, I had a friend/mentor who *told* me to take something to my hosts, and offered suggestions. I don't know when I would have figured this out on my own. Since they're so warm and thoughtful in other regards, I would think these people just don't know any better.

Maybe you could mention to them that some of the families that host them aren't so well off financially, and also that it's common in the frum world to bring wine, dessert, or a gift to their hosts. And offer to advise them about which hechsherim different families accept if this could be an issue. (And make sure they know not to bring a non-food gift on shabbos...and none at all if there's no eruv.) Make it like *you* don't care, but this is just what's done in the community, and how some of the *other* families might really appreciate it. Maybe even suggest particular items for particular families if you know them better than these people do.

Hopefully they'll get it, start bringing something (maybe even to you, too) and limit their intake by people who might not be so well off. But limiting quantities of your own food is a good idea. Although my guests almost universally eat less than I expect, Friday night I make sure only to put food on the table that I don't want saved for shabbos lunch.
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BrachaC




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:02 am
Having spent 5 years in a OOT kollel- Hatzlacha. Some families can not be understood. I know that some of our guests would come expecting huge meals with lots of food...and that was the expectation- a lot of these families do not cook at home. They see it as a huge compliment that they are enjoying your food to that extent. Try not to let it go too much longer without "teaching" this family a lesson in hakaras hatov. When a family takes and takes from you it is not beneficial two fold- for you because you are becoming resentful, and for them, because they miss out on a huge piece of our lives. We are Yehudim- the mida of hakaras hatov is very important, and we need to model and teach it actively. Some people are raised like that naturally but many are not. It is so exciting that they are actually making real steps in their avodas Hashem!! Use an opportunity like your birthday- have dh call them and say you are coming this week and my wife's birthday is this week- tulips are her favorite flowers!! or something like that...
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:02 am
amother wrote:
pinktichel wrote:
I find that people who aren't used to all that food want to try everything. That being said, my guests are usually stuffed after the first course and tend to take less of the other food. They have now started making PSA announcements at the table to warn the newbies about the rest of the food that's coming!

I noticed one of our guests (thin as a string bean) eating about 5 pieces of fish. I was glad he liked it! Like Raisin said, some people are just hungrier/bigger eaters than most.

What I do find disturbing is that a family who comes regularly never contributes. It would be nice if they would bring some fruit, a bottle of wine, flowers. Anything.

Edited to add: I think Raisin's idea of plating the food is a great one. I would definitely do it for the main course and give each person a piece of fish for the first course. I wouldn't plate the salads though.


but do you think it was normal for a wife to save food for the husband who came late?? It wasn;t like a piece of cake or something - but a plate FULL of fish, salads and dips.

chocolate moose wrote:
Accept their quirks. When they come, that's how they are.

Make what you can afford. Can you ask them to bring somethng, maybe the wine and the dessert ?


they are a "kiruv" family you know? I wouldn't feel comfortable asking them to bring something. Especially if no other familiy asks them.
greenfire wrote:
sounds like they enjoy coming to you and part of that enjoyment is how much food you have ... eating is a social activity you know ... especially when you invite someone for a meal ...

they may lack some etiquette if they never bring anything ... but I should think it's not intentional ...

I would take it as a compliment that they love coming to you and enjoy the food as well ...


I think there is a big difference between coming for the company and enjoying the food and stuffing your face just because it's free. Like I said we have lots of company, and some people are big eaters yet I never got this feeling that people eat as if they haven't eaten in days.

I guess I am just really annoyed and I need to either get over myself or take a break from having them.


Sure you could. Tell them where to shop and exactly what to get.
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:03 am
Wow, I think I am totally misrepresenting myself as a greedy resentful hostess. I LOVE having guests and 99% of all shabbosim we have somebody at our shabbos table. We always make a lot of food and I like when people help themselves at the table because, like somebody said, it shows they enjoy the food and are comfortable. And some people in the community are big men with large appetites Wink , children who eat really well etc. This particular family just gives off these vibes – they are like a tornado – normally when I put the food out I ALWAYS have something left because we serve in big bowls (as I am too lazy to have to wash a whole set of bowls after the meal and would rather just put stuff away in the fridge in the same bowl as I served embarrassed) and when they come they eat every.single.thing on the table, I’ve seen them take 4-5 pieces of every kind of fish, 3-4 servings of each salad, they always finish the challah that’s cut up, every single piece of chicken on the serving plate (I always put at least 3-4 extra pieces). You get the point. And like I said it’s not even that I feel bad that my food gets eaten I just don’t get this mentality. Confused
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amother


 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:09 am
amother wrote:
Wow, I think I am totally misrepresenting myself as a greedy resentful hostess. I LOVE having guests and 99% of all shabbosim we have somebody at our shabbos table. We always make a lot of food and I like when people help themselves at the table because, like somebody said, it shows they enjoy the food and are comfortable. And some people in the community are big men with large appetites Wink , children who eat really well etc. This particular family just gives off these vibes – they are like a tornado – normally when I put the food out I ALWAYS have something left because we serve in big bowls (as I am too lazy to have to wash a whole set of bowls after the meal and would rather just put stuff away in the fridge in the same bowl as I served embarrassed) and when they come they eat every.single.thing on the table, I’ve seen them take 4-5 pieces of every kind of fish, 3-4 servings of each salad, they always finish the challah that’s cut up, every single piece of chicken on the serving plate (I always put at least 3-4 extra pieces). You get the point. And like I said it’s not even that I feel bad that my food gets eaten I just don’t get this mentality. Confused
I'mn the same amother who previously wrote that you'd hate to have me as a guest.
I dont get the mentality of people who begrudge their guests of eating their full.
People who have larger appetites than the norm KNOW that the amount they eat is not typical, and often are embarassed about it, but would rather eat than be hungry, even if it is embarassing. Especially since they probably are already embarassed, if you're giving up vibes that you're resentful for the amount of food they're eating, they're probably picking up on it and it hurts them even more. I know a few people that gave off that vibe to me and I no longer go to them even when invited because it hurts me too much because I know just how lowly they are thinking of me when I'm eating my usual amount.
So plate the expensive stuff directly, like fish and chicken. And let them eat their full of the rest.
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DefyGravity




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 01 2009, 8:28 am
I love it when people stuff themselves with my food, I take it as a huge compliment. If I happen to want to save a bit of a dish for another day, I won't serve the whole thing.

I'd assume that most people have a mentality that when they are invited out, that they're being invited to eat as much as they want. I have a huge appetite, and unfortunately will keep eating as long as there is food on the table - and DH will do this as well. We're both huge eaters and will eat and eat and eat until the food is taken away. Oftentimes we're the last people eating! If people don't like this, they don't have to invite us back, but generally, we're invited back. Usually the hostess is proud that her food is being devoured, it's a compliment when there are little or no leftovers. And like amother above me wrote, I would assume that most host/esses put their food out to be eaten. If they don't want to feed me, send a bill.

My pet peeve is when people take a lot of food and then don't eat it. I make my food for people to enjoy, it's not nice to waste perfectly good food. Why can't people take a little bit, try it, and if they like it, eat more? An adult is usually capable of knowing how much he/she is capable of eating. It also annoys me when a guest will take a huge piece of food for their kid. They know their kid can't finish it!

One time, I had a guest that didn't finish her dessert - and after they left, I finished it Smile Yup, I'm like George Costanza.
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