not being invited to wedding dinner

Liba

Sun, May 03 2009, 3:31 am

It is sad to see so many people hurt and upset about being asked to the simcha but not being invited for the meal. Would you really be happier not to get any invitation at all? Is the food really that important that you would rather miss out on the mitzvah of simchas chossin v'kallah if they can't afford or don't have space to seat everyone they want to have participate? You presumably were invited because they want you there. They paid for your invitation and I am presume there will be/were some sort of refreshments.

In the day and age where we need takanos to help people cut back on chassuna expenses, how will it work if everyone expects to be fed full multiple course meals? Is your seat at the chassuna meal really so important that the family should be taking on bigger debt? Are you only able to be sameach if you eat chicken?

We have a KE"H large family and couldn't even invite second cousins or most of our parents first cousins to the seuda. I see it being an even bigger problem B"H KE"H for our children's generation. I am glad I have some time to figure out what the proper etiquette is. I don't want people offended, but I also don't want to have a heart attack ChV"Sh over debt.

Clarissa

Sun, May 03 2009, 3:51 am

Let me clarify. As I said, I would be neither hurt nor upset. I'd be happy to not be included. And I'd be happier to miss the wedding if we're not close enough for me to go to the whole thing. Why do I need to observe the nuptials of people I'm not close to? That means little to me, and it's a hassle to go. I said I think it's tacky. To repeatedly have it portrayed as feeling wounded (not that it's happened to me, as I don't know anybody who would do that) is silly, and besides the point.

Raisin

Sun, May 03 2009, 4:00 am

Clarissa wrote:

I think the same people who will be insulted not to be invited at all will be insulted if they are only invited to half the wedding. And the people who are big enough to realise that people don't have to go bankrupt for you will probably be perfectly happy to receive half an invitation.

Clarissa

Sun, May 03 2009, 4:17 am

Raisin wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I guess it's different in different groups. In my culture, people who can't afford big weddings have small, yet beautiful, weddings. Nobody expects anybody to go bankrupt, I don't know where you think that would please me. Lots of people have modest affairs, surrounded by people they love and with whom they want to share the event. Inviting to watch the wedding is just not done, since it's not like people who aren't close to you will get such a bang out of seeing the wedding, in and of itself, and it's obvious who is important enough to stay and who would have to leave. Maybe it's just a cultural difference, or whatever. If I'm not a good friend of close relative of yours, I'm not all that interested in seeing your wedding. I don't see it as such a prize to witness a wedding, frankly, if we're not close in some way.

Raisin

Sun, May 03 2009, 4:34 am

personally I agree that 2 tiered weddings are going to hurt peoples feelings. (and I can see this is the case form this thread) I haven't made any simchas yet, but probably when I do, I will make a much simpler affair (buffet style, maybe cater it myself) so I can invite all my friends, not just those I can afford to invite becasue I am paying a lot of money per head.

but clarissa - in the ops case she wants to invite people to the chuppa, to dance, and to eat from a buffet. not just to watch.

and what if a person has lots of close friends, and lots of relatives? should she pick fights with them to narrow down her guest list? bankrupt herself? or invite all 500 and serve hot dogs? you've got to be brave to do the last option.

mominisrael2

Sun, May 03 2009, 4:45 am

chocolate moose wrote:

What about inviiting such ppl to the shabos kallah or sheva brochos or the shower ? why doe sit have to be the wedding itself ?

This is how my in-laws solved this problem, both because we had our wedding OOT and because there were tons of non-relative/close friend/etc. people to invite...we ended up having more people at the sheva brachos than at the wedding, but I think it just made the wedding that much more special since it was on the smaller side.

Seraph

Sun, May 03 2009, 4:47 am

You do what I did and get married in a country where you know few people, and then even your 200 person wedding hall doesnt get filled up. Wink

What I did when it came to my wedding was I didnt necessarily invite people that I barely knew... but if someone asked me when the wedding was, I gave them one of the "extra" invitations that I printed up, so I wouldnt offend them. Or I'd say "We're making a really small wedding, only family. Sorry."

Or you make a simcha at your house. We made my sons bris in my house, and though there were no "invites" people didnt get offended when they didnt get a call when they heard where it was- very limited space obviously.

The only times I got a "come dance at my wedding" invites was when a girl in my high school graduated and got married, she'd tack an invitation on the high school bulletain board notifying ppl when the wedding was, and those who liked her enough came to dance.

mominisrael2

Sun, May 03 2009, 5:03 am

Barbara wrote:

I'd feel the same about a wedding. While I might be slightly hurt about not being invited, I would get over it a lot faster than a C-list invite.

Totally agree. I got one of those from a distant cousin the day of the simcha (and they even had the nerve to tell us it was because they had gotten a cancellation!), and wouldn't go even if I had been able to scramble and find a last-minute babysitter...it's just rude.

sarahd

Sun, May 03 2009, 5:06 am

amother wrote:

the only time I can remember getting invited to chuppah only, was quite recently.
my neighbor from accross the street ( heck I can see into her house) made a big wedding in a huge hall......im her customer from her basement store...... she was invited to my own kids wedding......and yet all I got was one of those half invites.
all I could think of was...... what is up with this?
no. im not speaking to her anymore. and I wont be giving her my business anymore as well. why bother?

Huh? The reason you give people your business is because you're angling for an invitation to their kids' weddings?

Clarissa

Sun, May 03 2009, 5:22 am

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

Huh? The reason you give people your business is because you're angling for an invitation to their kids' weddings?

You really don't understand her point? Or you were just in the mood to insult her?

Last edited by Clarissa on Sun, May 03 2009, 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total

chocolate moose

Sun, May 03 2009, 5:22 am

Barbara wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

costanza wrote:

I am making a bar mitzvah in 2 weeks and deciding where to cut the guest list was, at times, difficult. Everyone has different categories of friends. And I did not want to have a two tiered invitation. To me, that just publicizes that some are in the lower tier.

but a bar mitzvah is different. most ppl don't make huge affairs. there's only one side of the family to consider, anyway.

How? At the wedding, you consider the bride's family and the groom's family. By time the Bar Mitzvah rolls around, groom is called dad, and bride is called mom. Same people. Same sides of the family to consider. Except now you add in the kid's friends, so in reality you have more people.

As to the size of affairs that most people make, that depends upon the community in which you live. I've attended Bar Mitzvahs where the seudah was bagels and cream cheese after a weekday shachrit, and I've attended Bar Mitzvahs that cost well over $100,000.

In the end, when you may a simcha, you have to start with a budget, then decide where to go with it. If you want a huge number of people on a small budget, you make it simple -- a dessert reception, for example. If you want a fancy meal, then you invite fewer people.

Yes, if the bar mitzvah boy is younger than the married siblings. It's the opposite in our house.

ss321

Sun, May 03 2009, 6:04 am

Liba wrote:

It is sad to see so many people hurt and upset about being asked to the simcha but not being invited for the meal. Would you really be happier not to get any invitation at all?

yes I would be. As barbara said, rather not be invited than be a "c list" invite.
I dont mind if I am not invited! good you know your limits. And now I dont feel pressured to find a babysitter and get all dressed and spend my time at the wedding of someone I barely know. Less uncomfortable for both of us. lets call a spade a spade. you are an old acquaintance..a friend of my cousin who I met in shul 3x and gave some advice to..live down the block but we never really have much to do with one another we go to different shuls and schools...cases like those. its not that the "FOOD' is so importantto me. its that my TIME with my family is so important to me. going to a wedding involves getting dressed, picking up a babysitter, driving there, spending time there, getting your car back and driving home. then driving a babysiter home. so even if you only stay at the wedding for 15 minutes (if you are invited to "simchas chosson vekallah only"), the entire thing is AT LEAST a 1.5 hr ordeal. Like I said in a previous post. when youre 19 and its a girl from 2 grades above you, then its not offensive and its fun...going from wedding to wedding night after night. but when you are married with a family, it is just a hassle. dont invite me if you dont want me there for the entire thing.
We also have a large family b'h and there are LOTS of second cousins kids weddings where my parents are invited, but we arent. no biggie, good for them! Its not offensive at all. with hundreds of cousins you arent going to go to each wedding, and it makes it less uncomfortable.

ora_43

Sun, May 03 2009, 6:26 am

I don't think there's any one right answer to this. It all depends on your community.

Of course, when sending invites you have to consider the recipient's communal norms more than your own. So if they're from a community where such things aren't done it's best to just not invite them in most cases. And like ss321 and others said, don't give a dancing + buffet invite to someone who lives far away or for whatever reason would have to make a huge special effort to come. Dancing + buffet invites are for people who live in the same city and could stop by for 2-3 hours without a huge inconvenience.

I know that in some Israeli communities it is accepted to have "m'samchim," usually the yeshiva friends of the groom or something similar, who are given food but not the full sit-down meal given to other guests. This sounds similar.

In general, though, I think when you have a huge guest list and smallish budget it's best to either make the entire wedding cheap (big hall but simple food for everyone), make the dinner part of the wedding more of an afterparty (like Fox described), or to make the wedding itself small but hold a big party later, like Clarissa said.

amother

Sun, May 03 2009, 6:50 am

I'll have to be anon here in case anyone recognizes themselves Wink

.

We had a family wedding a few years ago - my first cousin married off her daughter. We didn't get an invite and then about two weeks before we got a phone call from an immediate relative of the cousin (not her herself) asking if we were coming. I innocently said we hadn't got an invitation. They said: it must have gotten lost in the mail and gave the details. I said I'd speak to dh and let them know. About two hours later got another call urgently asking if we were coming. I said yes. This was out of town, and I bought a gift.

I must have been a real idiot because I believed them.

But then the whole thing happened again with their next daughter. This time I said if I would have known earlier I would have come.

Honestly - if you can't invite, don't. If you couldn't invite and now people refused so you have room, be honest. Say something like 'we really wanted to invite you, but we had to invite too many people. We're so glad now we are able to ask you.' But to lie so brazenly (frum people)?

Raisin

Sun, May 03 2009, 6:51 am

cassandra wrote:

Anyone think that doing these half-invites can be perceived as fishing for a gift? When you are invited you are obligated to give something no matter the level of invitation, which is another reason why it might be better to not be invited at all.

I don't think so. I don't think you have to give a gift in these cases. (but what do I know? I only go to about 3 weddings a year, and this year 3 of them are on the same day)

Fox

Sun, May 03 2009, 7:17 am

cassandra wrote:

Actually, I consider about half the invitations I get -- including those for the meal -- to be fishing for a gift.

My rule for attending chassunahs is that -- barring some unusual circumstance -- I have to have a personal relationship with the chasson or the kallah or one of the baalei simcha. I get a ton of invites that are obviously merged directly from the databases of mosdos. I am sure that the baalei simcha, often communal leaders of one sort or another, are simply making sure that no one is offended. But I don't consider these "real" invitations -- even if I were to get a meal out of it.

While I prefer the format of chuppah-refreshments & dancing-seuda, I am happy to get an invite for the chuppah only. If it's possible, I attend; if not, I don't feel guilty.

I think that sometimes the baalei simcha get a version of "kallah disease", where they become incredibly self-centered about their event. It's natural when one's daughter or son is getting married to feel it's the most important thing in the world, but outside the immediate or very-slightly-extended family, life goes on. People have to go to work, help their kids with homework, do the laundry, etc. It's important to be realistic about how much time people have available for this particular mitzvah.

In a perfect world, I wish chassunahs actually became less of a big deal. Less pressure on the baalei simcha to subsidize the catering industry; less pressure on people to attend an all-evening affair; less pressure to mount a "production" worthy of everyone's time. The most memorable chassunahs I've attended were actually low-key events held in neighborhood shuls. People dropped in and out, danced, were m'sameach the chosson and kallah, etc., without committing themselves to a full evening. Couples even staggered their attendance so babysitters weren't needed.

I know, I'm yearning for a dream world! Most shul social halls can't handle large groups, and I know many families where the guest list reaches 400 without inviting anyone other than first cousins! Personally, I'm trying to convince my teenagers that when they marry, I''YH, everyone likes a good barbeque! LOL

Barbara

Sun, May 03 2009, 7:29 am

Raisin wrote:

cassandra wrote:

I don't think so. I don't think you have to give a gift in these cases. (but what do I know? I only go to about 3 weddings a year, and this year 3 of them are on the same day)

Isn't that always the way it is?

As Clarissa said, maybe it is different communities. In my community, it would be seen as a brazen plea for a gift.