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Do you ever "compromise" on yiddishkeit for money
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 7:44 am
Would you in any way "compromise" on something in yiddishkeit because of monetary reasons? If so, what things?

Examples of what I mean:
Kollel is important to you, but because its not working financially, your husband goes to work.
You really want a certain type of community because you think that would be best for your children to be raised in the proper environment, but because of monetary reasons, you live in a less ideal location, but still an ok place.
Israel is important to you but you can't swing it financially there, so you live in chutz laaretz.
A certain school provides the best jewish education in your area, but you can't afford it, so you either send to a less good, but cheaper school, or you homeschool knowing that the education you are giving isnt on par with what your kids would be getting in school.
You generally buy only certain hechsherim, but definitely don't hold that others are treif. There is an insane sale on the less good but still ok hechsher- do you buy the cheaper less good hechsher, or pay a lot more for the better hechsher?
Chalav yisrael is important to you, (this isnt directed at chabad or other people that hold that non chalav yisrael is treif) as you don't want to rely on the heter of chalav stam, but chalav yisrael really is very expensive, so you rely on the heter of chalav stam.



Would you do any of the above, or are your standards in yiddishkeit related things so steadfast that even tough financial considerations wouldn't change anything?
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bubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 7:47 am
No.
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ss321




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 7:52 am
no
(but with a caveat - some of those examples dont apply to me - like I dont believe I am "compromising" my judaism by not living in Israel. maybe if I was more of a zionist, that hashkafah, I would. we sincerely dont believe that. I dont believe in homeschooling period, so to me that would be a compromise, not an "ok" second choice, on many chinuch levels)
We would find ways to cut corners in other areas, other than religion.
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Strawberry




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:03 am
Your examples can't be grouped together like that imho.

Would we leave kollel if we had no money? Yes. I will not allow my child to have no food or clothing. BUT learning in kollel is a special thing to do and is not considered a chumra. It is a wonderful way to serve Hashem but there is nothing wrong with working to feed and clothe your family. In fact I feel it is worse to continue to learn full time if you don't have any food. That is not considered compromising yiddishkeit.

Would we buy cholov stam or not as good hechsher? Nope. That IS compromising on yiddishkeit.

There is a big difference between the 2.
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:05 am
ss321 wrote:
no
(but with a caveat - some of those examples dont apply to me - like I dont believe I am "compromising" my judaism by not living in Israel. maybe if I was more of a zionist, that hashkafah, I would. we sincerely dont believe that. I dont believe in homeschooling period, so to me that would be a compromise, not an "ok" second choice, on many chinuch levels)
We would find ways to cut corners in other areas, other than religion.
The caveat isnt neccesary. I gave examples of what people might consider compromising on yiddishkeit. Obviously, if you don't beleive something is important, its not compromising on yiddishkeit to forgo that.
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Chocoholic




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:05 am
We don't keep chalav yisrael....
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:07 am
Strawberry wrote:
Your examples can't be grouped together like that imho.

Would we leave kollel if we had no money? Yes. I will not allow my child to have no food or clothing. BUT learning in kollel is a special thing to do and is not considered a chumra. It is a wonderful way to serve Hashem but there is nothing wrong with working to feed and clothe your family. In fact I feel it is worse to continue to learn full time if you don't have any food. That is not considered compromising yiddishkeit.

Would we buy cholov stam or not as good hechsher? Nope. That IS compromising on yiddishkeit.

There is a big difference between the 2.
There is a difference, but thats what this thread is about. What stuff in yiddiskeit that are important to you would you compromise on if money were an issue? I realize that they are in no way similar, but they all do go under the category of "I'm doing less than I think is ideal because of money related reasons."
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:10 am
Like one example in my life:
I think it is very important for me and my family to live in an all chareidi area. (Yes, others may not think its neccesary, but for me, I think it is important.) All chareidi areas are much more expensive than if I would live in a more modern or a mixed area, but this is one thing I will definitely NOT compromise on because of financial reasons.
Certain people try to convince me that living in this type of location is a luxury. I think not. I find it imperative, and would not budge on it, even if it put us in a much tougher financial situation, because I think it is that important.
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amother






Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:22 am
Here's a good one: I think I am (personally) more "religious" by taking care of my own children rather than being a kollel wife who has to work to support her family (but would not have to work if her husband was working) and therefore must send her kids to daycare or to be watched by a stranger. I think THAT is "compromising" for the sake of "religion."
Bash if you must, that's why I'm amother.
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costanza




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:25 am
I hope I'm not crossing a line by writing this, but Seraph, I've read some of your posts lately about financial strain and choices that need to be made. I think that if you rationalize enough, you can make any expenditure a "necessity" when it doesn't have to be. I don't know anything about your real life situation, but if you are stretching yourself financially, be careful. These things can snowball out of control and your values alone can't get you out of it.
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shalhevet




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:26 am
I agree that it's very hard to answer the question using those examples.

Some are just plain halacha - no, I wouldn't buy a lesser hechsher because it was on sale, or chalav stam. If I couldn't afford it, I'd go without. (This might not apply to extreme situations like wars or something, or little children's health - but then I'd ask a rav.)

Some are clearly not halacha - no one says someone has to learn in kolel. It is a wonderful way to be ovdei Hashem, but you can be a 100% halacha observing Jew without being in full time kolel.

For the best school for my child - I'd give up almost everything. That is the basis of Yiddishkeit IMHO.

But the other issues are very grey, and I don't think you are painting the correct facts. For example, we live in a mixed community, and I was only recently talking to a friend who lives in a completely chareidi town. When I talked to her about her son's cheder I was absolutely shocked - where my son learns is far superior - so I suggested she look into other chadarim. She told me that she's checked them out, and the others are worse.

Also, living in a completely chareidi community doesn't guarantee your neighbours will all be honest, moral, considerate, baalei chesed etc. Sometimes there may be a better influence in a mixed community, especially if there are baalei madreiga living there.
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shalhevet




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:28 am
And your caveat about all chareidi areas being more expensive is not true in Israel. There are plenty of wonderful Torah communities in cheap areas (Ofakim, Netivot, Haifa spring to mind).
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amother






Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:29 am
amother wrote:
Here's a good one: I think I am (personally) more "religious" by taking care of my own children rather than being a kollel wife who has to work to support her family (but would not have to work if her husband was working) and therefore must send her kids to daycare or to be watched by a stranger. I think THAT is "compromising" for the sake of "religion."
Bash if you must, that's why I'm amother.



Why on earth would this make you more or less religious then someone else? Rolling Eyes
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Besiyata Dishmaya




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:36 am
Strawberry is right. You can't group them all together. Are you talking about compromising on yiddishkeit or are you talking about compromising on your aspirations?

You can be the biggest tzaddik and not live in Israel nor attend a Kollel while you're not compromising on Yiddishkeit. And neither would you be compromising on Yiddishkeit if you buy a cheaper esrog or give less tzedakah. However, being lenient with hechsherim because of money that most would not use, is considered compromising on Yiddishkeit.
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hadasa




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:40 am
First of all, I (and other Lubavitchers) don't think Chalav Stam is Treif. Nevertheless, it's not something I would compromise on (for ourselves). I would rather go (and have gone in the past) without dairy for months on end.

On Shlichus, unfortunately, we compromise all the time. The school we run is now co-ed, because we could no longer afford to keep separate classes. We serve machine Matzos at public Sedarim because we cannot provide everyone with Shmurah Matzah.

For ourselves, the line is much further, but I can't say honestly we would never compromise on anything. It depends on the situation. There are lines we would never, ever cross, and lines that are not set in stone. It's a matter of priorities.

I do think that the situation you have mentioned is a very personal decision which you and your husband have to make. If you decide living in this area is your priority, then you accept that you'll have to cut down on othe expenses in order to afford it. Only you decide what is a priority for your family. (Unless, of course, you want to consult a Rav.)
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:44 am
shalhevet wrote:
And your caveat about all chareidi areas being more expensive is not true in Israel. There are plenty of wonderful Torah communities in cheap areas (Ofakim, Netivot, Haifa spring to mind).
(The point of the thread wasnt to discuss this specific example, but... Ofakim and netivot are takua, and it would cost more in terms of transportation, and it would cost more in terms of my husband having limited financial opportunities. So it probably ends up being cheaper to live here than in ofakim or netivot. and haifa is really cheaper than where I live? somehow I doubt that ANY city would be cheaper than my yishuv.)
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catonmylap




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:45 am
I don't think any of these are examples of compromise.

Quote:
Examples of what I mean:
Kollel is important to you, but because its not working financially, your husband goes to work.


Going to kollel is not about being dirt poor. A husband's obligation to support his family comes first. There is no compromise here. It doesn't say anything about learning in kollel in the Torah, and our previous Torah greats did nothing of that sort.

Quote:
You really want a certain type of community because you think that would be best for your children to be raised in the proper environment, but because of monetary reasons, you live in a less ideal location, but still an ok place.


As you said "it is still an ok place." There is no compromise.

Quote:
Israel is important to you but you can't swing it financially there, so you live in chutz laaretz.

This one depends on what "is important to you" means.

Quote:
A certain school provides the best jewish education in your area, but you can't afford it, so you either send to a less good, but cheaper school, or you homeschool knowing that the education you are giving isnt on par with what your kids would be getting in school.


You make your choices. "Best Jewish education" is subjective. They might be getting hashfakic things at home that are superior.

Quote:
You generally buy only certain hechsherim, but definitely don't hold that others are treif. There is an insane sale on the less good but still ok hechsher- do you buy the cheaper less good hechsher, or pay a lot more for the better hechsher?


If you hold that it is Kosher, it is not compromise.

Quote:
Chalav yisrael is important to you, (this isnt directed at chabad or other people that hold that non chalav yisrael is treif) as you don't want to rely on the heter of chalav stam, but chalav yisrael really is very expensive, so you rely on the heter of chalav stam.


Same as above.

There are many situations in halacha where there are heterim to be meikel for certain reasons. I think it is not a compromise to be meikel in those situations, especially if we are talking about not keeping a chumra, rather than taking on a kula....
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:46 am
MeThinks wrote:
However, being lenient with hechsherim because of money that most would not use, is considered compromising on Yiddishkeit.
It really depends how much you hold some hechsher isnt ok. If you rav says "Better buy this hechsher over that hechsher, but the other one is still kosher and you can rely on it bishas hadchak or in certain circumstances", would you use a hefsed meruba as one of those circumstances? I know hefsed meruba plays a big part in hilchos kashrus.
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catonmylap




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 8:53 am
I think we all have our absolutes that we would not compromise on, no matter what, and they might be different from each other.

1-Jewish education for my child/children
2-ritual objects (like lulav/estrog, matzah, talis/tefillin for dh, etc, would never consider doing without)
3-kosher food
4-shabbat observance in my home
5-keeping taharat hamispacha

I think those are very basic.

Living in a haredi only environment is not a yiddishkeit thing but a lifestyle/choice. I don't know if it is fair to justify it that way so you don't have to back down from that position no matter what.
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creativemommyto3




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 04 2009, 9:01 am
amother wrote:
Here's a good one: I think I am (personally) more "religious" by taking care of my own children rather than being a kollel wife who has to work to support her family (but would not have to work if her husband was working) and therefore must send her kids to daycare or to be watched by a stranger. I think THAT is "compromising" for the sake of "religion."
Bash if you must, that's why I'm amother.



That all depends on the person's attitude. I was just reading about Rebbetzin Kotler a''H.. the wife of R' Ahron Kotler zT'L who started BMG in Lakewood. EVERYTHING she did was l'sheim Torah.. she even thought of her household errands as special b/c they were enabling the Rav to learn.. Such simcha and true ahavas Torah.. most kollel wives strive for that level if they aren't on that level already.
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