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Living in Israel with emunah vs. fear



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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 05 2009, 7:52 pm
Inspired by the other thread.
One of my most favorite places in the world is Beyond the Green Line, Israel. I admire to no end the people who live there day by day and pretend? there are no Arabs across the mountain. I had a few opportunities to see it firsthand and I realized the mesiras nefesh these people have on a daily basis to keep all of the Land of Israel ours.
I also admire the people who live in the rest of Israel because they are also surrounded by a dozen or so hostile countries and enemies within. These people also are keeping the Land of Israel ours.

I understand logically that I'm no safer here in Brooklyn and that Hashem has our plans laid out for us. But I don't deal with the issue every day. (Well, I have started to tell you the truth but it's different when you're concerned about one wacko than when you have to look out for hundreds of them.)

I'm interested in hearing from the "Israelis" their thoughts on this. I read some of it on the other thread and was pretty impressed by some posts. I'd love to hear more.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 12:51 am
I am sure I am the furthest over so I will start. I live in Yitzhar in what is called Gav Hahar or Lev HaShomron. I am 14 km from Kever Yosef in Shechem, in downtown Shechem.
For the first 4 mos in Israel I lived in Kfar Chabad and after that for 10 years in Rechovot.

First as to more dangerous. Nobody here pretend there are no Arabs. We also know that they are enemies. No soppy, unrealist dream that they are so wanting peace. I hear muezzin from 3 directions as my house is on the very edge of the yishuv and we have 5 Arab villages surrounding the yishuv. We do not have a fence for psychological and ideological reasons.

When I lived in Kfar Chabad, well its surrounded by orange groves and who picks the oranges? BR girls have to be very careful because these Arabs do not keep to themselves and stuff has happened. But almost nobody will say bring Jews to work.

Rechovot is a largish, by Israeli standards, city in the Shefela, low coastal area slightly north of the Negev. It is a 10 minute drive from Ramle and Lud, 2 cities with large Arab populations. If you are in TA then you are next to Yaffo. It is the rest of Israel who are pretending that there are no Arabs on the next block, riding on the bus, shopping in the stores, working at building sites, selling in the shuk, etc. Or they believe because he was born a citizen he is a good Arab.

We get up every morning and kids go to school, parents go to work or learn, shops and offices open and life is normal. There are roads houses, rocks and trfees. There are Arabs.

Before we had "peace" I pushed a double carriage on the streets of Shechem and walked on foot to Kever Yosef. My neighbor bought treif bones for his dog from the Arab butcher, nearly everybody had their car inspected there. I was married at Kever Yosef and a bus load of charedim were there from Rechovot and Y-m. Including the son of R- Y Neuwirth, the secretary of the Chabad BD and the main Israeli askan of the Tzanzer Rebbe. No "makom sakana" in those days. Another group of distinguished rabbonim were at our first bris there. We came in in private cars, no bulletproofing.

Different situation today as both some rabbanim (in many circles) and the govt are deciding things on a political basisd with an eye on the US, EU or stam coalition agreements. There is now a bulletproof bus which goes in about once a month and 2-3 people decide who can go in.

I do not believe people kid themselves here. They know that being a Jew anywhere comes with a price. The feeling of being first line of defence gives people strength. How many rockets did people take in Gush Katif and were proud to do it so it would not be Sederot, Ashkelon, etc.

Yes, the position is one of strength and emuna.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 2:29 am
I also live in the West Bank, not far from Imaonwheels. I live in Karnei Shomron which is about 15 minutes from Kfar Saba (not over the green line) and 20 min from Shechem.

We have had one bombing here in my yishuv (happened before I arrived) but other than that I do NOT feel fear from everyday life here. I am surrounded by Arabs but we do have a fence. We are a stone's throw from an Arab village that is not very friendly and we drive through another that is not so bad (at this time.) I am aware of their presence but I do not spend my time thinking about them. Most of them want it peaceful here so they can work on building projects and clean the streets and pick their olives that grow around and in our yishuv. I wish they would employ only Jews but they don't. They don't like us and we don't like them but we deal with it. No different than the Muslims in NY.

Although it doesn't bother me when I travel to more populated places (making them more of a target for terrorism,) I honestly feel "safer" in my yishuv than in Yerushalim or Tel Aviv.

I was in the States before Pesach and I can honestly say I was much more nervous there about the amount of Arabs/Muslims that were surrounding me. We are almost all separated from daily life from them here but in a shopping mall in NJ, 3 Arab tourists came up to me and made me freak out a little.

No matter how things go, I would give my right arm to be able to remain here in Israel. I'm nervous about what is to come - I believe we are preparing for worse times ahead, without aid from America, and I am ready to stay. I hope Moshiach comes before things could get worse though.

I am a pretty laid back type person. That said, the same twinge of fear that I get when I am on the top of a flight of stairs going down and I imagine cv"s falling down, is the same fear I have when I cross the street and is also the same fear as living here or anywhere else. Anything can happen in any way anywhere. I breathe a sigh of relief when I wake up in the morning and when I walk through my front door. Any sense of security anywhere is false as any day could be our last. The chance of a terrorist causing my demise is very, very little and I honestly don't fear that type of death over another.

I think those living in chu"l and feeling "safer" are just deluding themselves. When our time is up, it is up, no matter where you are. There are many less Arabs here than in other countries and there is much better security here with guards and policemen trained in counteracting terrorism. I don't trust in them though, but Hashem. Once knowing and internalizing that Hashem decides when my time is up, why would that be a deciding factor for where is "safer" to live. Since schools are better here for my kids and I love the culture, there is no question. The kedushah I feel every minute is so special to me and I consider it such a privilege to be here and feel sad for others missing out only because of fear (misguided, of course, according to my logic, but I can't tell others how to feel.) There are other reasons that EY might not work out for some but fear shouldn't be the reason. Not in today's world, where Muslims are increasing numbers worldwide.

Also, my kids are safer (especially in our yishuv) than anywhere else as they can roam around alone and even go to the store for me. I would not let them play alone in the front yard in the States. Everyone looks out for one another here and although they have to be smart when it comes to strangers, they don't have to be afraid constantly. They go to the park alone and walk home from their friend's houses. It is such a breath of fresh air, like being born in the 50's.

My emunah vs. fear here is not even a thought. It is just regular life and IMO, more normal than in chu"l, at least for us.


Last edited by mandksima on Wed, May 06 2009, 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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mominisrael2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 4:54 am
Much of what mandksima wrote reflects my feelings as well...Maale Adumim is over the Green Line, close enough to the Arab villages that often I wake up to the sound of their prayer services, yet it is a place where the Jews and Arabs get along with each other and there has not been a terrorist attack in its 35-year history. I feel safer here than in Jerusalem, safer than living in NY on 9/11, safer than my OOT neighborhood where people get mugged walking home from shul and having Arabs give you the evil eye in the airport when traveling. DH never wore a kippah to work before we made aliyah because of the fear, and was one of the first people to leave Manhattan when the Towers fell because he knew what was happening better than any of his coworkers. I as well consciously avoided dressing "Jewish" if I could help it because I knew it would draw attention to myself.

We don't feel any of that fear living in EY. What we feel is gratefulness to the security guards at the malls and the airport and to the masses of soldiers walking around everywhere you look for actually knowing what to look for and not being afraid of the so-called "racial profiling" that has caused the US to always be a few steps behind in their security measures. We feel that Hashem is always watching us and taking care of us, and would never let any harm come to those who come to live in His land. As far as the terrorism, what happens is part of Hashem's master plan, and nothing is random.

I wouldn't trade living here for anything in the world and feel that it is a privilege and a blessing that Hashem has given us the emunah to be here. And believe it or not, we are doing MUCH better financially here than we ever did in the States -- I'm convinced on the zechus of our aliyah.
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Aidelmom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 5:41 am
I live just over the green line but in a city. Frankly I feel safer here than when I lived in jerusalem. When I was in jerusalem I felt a bit afraid when on a crowded bus or in any very crowded area especially outdoors or in town or geula. otoh when walking alone at night I felt perfectly safe which is something I did not do in the States wherever I lived. I see an arab village from my balcony and I hear the meuzzin but you hear the meuzzin in ramat eshkol as well. to tell the truth when I look out the window and see the village I may feel a bit uneasy but I wouldn't call it a full fledged fear. so I guess I'm somewhere between emunah and fear. Then again we are in galus so wherever we are we'll experience some fear I think that's just part of it until bias hamashiach.
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amother


 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 6:36 am
I live in central Jerusalem, and yes I can say for me the fear is here. When my parents came to visit once and they were coming back from Yam Hamelech to my apartment and they saw that I lived 20 mins from Ramallah- they did freak out a bit.

When I go to my Kupat Cholim (health clinic) and see an Arab get into a elevator, I will not get in with them. I dont open my door to a person I dont know, there have been ganevas and weird attacks on woman in this area from arabs. I only take Taxis from firms I know, and I dont take buses ever embarrassed I am definitely more paranoid than the average chuznik who come to live here! I didnt go to the shuk for a year and a half when I moved here because I was too afraid! Sometimes I wish I could live in BB, my s-I-l who live there, claim not to see any Arabs. Yes Im scared, but I know I have a tremendous Zechus to live here, and unlike anyone else here, and I will get bashed for this, I know I'm out of here when the first bomb falls.

In my home town there are gangs and killing and what not going on there all the time. Is here more scary than there? As previous posters have said, Hashem decides when your last day will be, not an arab YS!
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 6:40 am
I live in gush etzion, also over the green line.
I never pretend that there are no arabs. that is impossible for so many reasons but one is that every day, just driving on the highway, I see many arabs riding their donkeys as well as arab license plates on cars. I am not afraid to be among them. there was a pigua (in efrat) before I came to the area as well, but I am also, like someone else said, more nervous when going into yerushaliym.
for GR, you said that you dont deal with the issue of terror every day in america. well, to tell youthe truth, while it may be in the back of some peoples minds, I am not certain that it is ALWAYS in the back of everyones minds. I dont think about terrorism every waking minute of my life either, even when I am in busy yerushaliym. but I have to say that the last time I went back to the states (I am from new jersey) and I went into manhattan, I was a bit on the nervy side. I cant even explain why exactly, but it made me nervous. there were no gaurds like there are here, almost every building you go into has a gaurd. there, people just walked in (to most places).

I feel like it is a privelege to live in this amazing country. I am living where my forefathers lived so many years ago. I get a warm tingly feeling when I think of that. that my child(ren) can be walking on the same sand, grass, etc. that avraham aveinu walked on. to me that is WOW Smile
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Blair




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 7:00 am
I also live over the green line and yes I hear the Arabs 5 times a day especially in the summer when the windows are open. And yes we hear plenty of gun shots and yes they have tried numerous times to break in and yes they have succeed on several times. They are apprehended in a matter of minuets. I do feel I can walk on my streets safer then Beit Shemesh, Jerusalem and why is that because we do have constant security and an electric fence surrounding our whole community. On shabbos I feel safe to leave my doors open would not do that in Jerusalem. In places like Har Nof and Neve Yaacov I have known several people to come home from Shul on Shabbos to completely empty houses. We seldom to rarely every have any break ins and car thief it doesn't exist hear. Now you tell me where it is safer to live.
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 7:23 am
I'm also in Ma'ale Adumim, in the neighbourhood where all the building is going on. When DS#1 was 5 months old I would sit in his room nursing, watching the sun come up over the mountains and watching all the (Arab) construction workers arriving at the building sit across the street. When the city (iriyah) decided to build a shul on the roof of my kids' daycare, there was an uproar from the other parents. How could you let Arab workers that close to the children? This was right after the bulldozer attacks last summer. In the end the building went forward and they brought in guards for upstairs and for the entryway to the daycare. They're building 2000 apartment units 2 blocks away from me; all the workers are Arab. The kids say good morning to the workers in the morning (mine, not generally speaking); the workers smile back. Would I want to go live among them? No. But I'm not scared when I see them around. I'm not nervous sitting at a traffic light in Jerusalem if I notice the car next to me is Arab. (Driving over the green line is a different story altogether; the white/green licensed cars make me VERY nervous, although not for terror-related reasons.)
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 7:44 am
I'm not very afraid on a day-to-day basis but I think it's more a matter of getting used to it than of emunah.

It's the same as with any fear, if you confront it often enough and do the thing you fear, after a while you adjust. That's why people are generally more afraid to fly than to drive, why tourists from NYC get nervous walking around Jerusalem even though there are more murders there than here, etc. At first I was on edge every time I got on a bus in Jerusalem, after a year I could take the same line where there was a bombing the day before and be mostly OK. It's just part of human psychology, for the good and the bad.

I agree with previous posters, especially Imaonwheels, about life over the "green line." I find it reassuring to be in a community where everyone recognizes the danger and is prepared to deal with it. Currently I live in a city, not over the green line, and while I don't hear the muezzin every morning (BH! heard it all the time in Jerusalem, because apparently prayer isn't real prayer if people can't hear it 2 miles away at 5 in the @%#$%@# morning Exploding anger ) (you get used to that too, though) there are a lot of Arab workers here -- using bulldozers, using chainsaws, hanging around the playground for whatever reason, etc, and not many people trained to respond in case of attack, and that does make me nervous.

(About Arab workers -- personally I'm not afraid of Arabs in general or of Muslims in America or Europe (Saudi Arabia would be a different story). But for several reasons, Arab workers, and particularly those from the Palestinian Authority area, are likely to target Jews for crimes. Most are not criminals, but overall, the rate of PA Arab on Jew crime (including rape, rape of children, stabbings, etc, and not "just" things like theft) is much higher than other types of crime (for example, in 30% Arab Jerusalem, most of the s-x offenders on file are Arab -- again, lots of reasons for that, including reactions to rape if the victim is Arab, views of women and rape in local Muslim society, education in PA schools, etc, the point is controversial or no the danger is much greater from an Arab worker than a Jewish worker, although of course there are Jewish offenders as well)).
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JC




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 9:03 am
When I lived in Israel, I lived in Tel Aviv and I was more worried in the city than when I stayed with relatives in Efrat on a day to day basis. But if war broke out (not a preemptive war but full out old fashioned door--to-door war to the bitter end) I would be more nervous to be in a hard to defend village. I dont think it will come to that given the high tech weapons and nukes. I think that if Israels allies throw Israel under the bus, there is very little we can do but pray. (see Washington Times Nuke Secrets
Now I live in middle America and until now have felt reasonably safe. I worry when I go to the east coast I am more uncomfortable in NYC than I am anywhere in Israel. I figure that the terrorist threat is pretty darn low where I live, no point nuking a bunch of cows and corn.
For those of us feeling comfortable here in the USA, especially people like me in the middle of nowhere. Well we are not just in the middle of nowhere anymore, a database with our homes and pinpoint GPS with all our info may be coming to government office, I know Im not very comfortable with that.NPR GPS Census Note in the article about finding any and all possible hiding places.
I truly understand the lifesaving possibilities, but I think the ability for misuse in a centralized list far outweighs the positives. I just think how efficient the Nazis could have been if they had GPS of every little farm house, shack, and hidden cabin. Sorry to go so off topic.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 9:10 am
Blair wrote:
I also live over the green line and yes I hear the Arabs 5 times a day especially in the summer when the windows are open. And yes we hear plenty of gun shots and yes they have tried numerous times to break in and yes they have succeed on several times. They are apprehended in a matter of minuets. I do feel I can walk on my streets safer then Beit Shemesh, Jerusalem and why is that because we do have constant security and an electric fence surrounding our whole community. On shabbos I feel safe to leave my doors open would not do that in Jerusalem. In places like Har Nof and Neve Yaacov I have known several people to come home from Shul on Shabbos to completely empty houses. We seldom to rarely every have any break ins and car thief it doesn't exist hear. Now you tell me where it is safer to live.
I love this about living on a yishuv. on shabbat our door is always unlocked except when we are sleeping. but I should say that when we lived in ramat beit shemesh we left our front door unlocked, by mistake, overnight and I was not really that afraid either, but when I lived in yerushaliyim, I never would have.
but that being said, and I LOVE israel, growing up in the town that I did in america, we also could have left our door unlocked during the day if we wanted to, so its not necesarily just a yishuv or closed area thing. but it is nice Smile
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 9:16 am
I don't live over the green line and do live in a major city. Since coming to Israel 35 years ago I have always lived in major urban centers within the green line.

Although I do believe that living in EY is a zechus, my emunah has nothing to do with my fear. My emunah is emunah in the existence of the Ribono Shel Olam, not emunah that he will take care of me. I keep mitzvos because I am commanded to, not because I believe that if I do, the Ribono Shel Olam will reward me with physical security or a long life. My bitochon is one of bitochon in the righteousness of the Almightly but not in the fact that he will give me physical security.

Bearing those beliefs in mind, I can definitely say that although one doesn't feel "fear" on a daily or hourly basis living here, there are times which can become extremely stressful and fearful, times which have no parallel today anywhere in the Western World. Being shelled, sitting in a sealed room with a gas mask on, being told, as we were, that the entire country is having a drill on June 2 to see whether we can get into a "safe room " or a shelter within anywhere between 15 seconds and three minutes depending on where in the country you live. I definitely feel fear at moments when I hear of piguim - arab terror attacks, when people are knived by arabs, when an arab tractor driver tries to kill people, when an arab with a gun gets into a yeshiva to try and kill Jewish bochurim.

Sure there are nutcases abroad but there if you are hit or not is random chance. Here, by just being a Jew living in EY - anywhere, cities, yishuvim, green line or not, you are automatically a target. Whether it is you today or tomorrow may be random but there is an entire world of arabs out there who want to see you dead, as soon as possible. This is the only country, as Yeshayahu Leibowitz once said (whether you agree with his politics or not) that with one massive atom bomb you can once again wipe out six million Jews, this time in one minute, not in 13 years of Holocaust. That's scary. Because it's also the only country in the world with other countries who are on the way to getting seriously dangerous weapons stating that they want to wipe you off the map.

So in answer to the question of emunah versus fear, my emunah and that of many people I know, has nothing to do with their being fearful of a situation because belief in Hashem doesn't necessary get interpreted into belief that he will always keep you safe. That there will always be a State of Israel as if it were a given. Just the same way that he let it be created by human beings he can let it be destroyed by other human beings. After all, it happened once, and the only promise we have from him is that he won't destroy the world by water again after the mabul. There was no promise vis a vis destroying Israel, vis a vis destroying other parts of the world etc.

That isn't to say - and once again let me emphasize it - that those who feel this way live every minute in fear. Life is normal. You go to work, you come home, you go shopping, you buy a new dress, you get a new pair of shoes, you take your kids to the park and you go on vacation etc. But there are a whole world of Israelis for whom driving beyond the green line to a hitnachalut is not something that they would ever do voluntariliy, there is a whole world of men who only saw these places during their army service but not as a civilian, there is a whole world of women here who were never there because they were either not in the army or did their service in places that didn't take them to the "shtachim".

Arabs - true there are arabs in Yafo and there are Arabs in Yerushalayim and there are Arabs in Haifa. But by and large if you just live in your Jewish neighborhood, shop in your local supermarket and Jewish stores, etc. in the major cities you won't come across them on a daily basis. Probably more in yerushalayim than in Haifa and certainliy more than in Tel Aviv and many places in the coastal area. Many Israelis definitely fear arabs, as every arab seems to some as a potential terrorist and today who knows.

Are we safer here than abroad? I don't think there is a standard answer to that question. Depends where, depends when. For people living in hitnachaluyot like Imaonwheels, it is the most normal thing in the world to pass through arab villages...but the days of being able to peacefully walk down the streets of schechem and Hevron were a very long time ago...almost a generation actually. There is a whole world of Israelis who don't know that situation and for them those places mean only one thing, the enemy. And for the average Haifa Jewish citizen or that living in Ramat Hasharon, Pardes Hanna, Rishon Letzion etc, the thought of even thinking of doing such a thing is like science fiction, not part of their reality. That's the "where"

Now for the "when". there are more peaceful times and less peaceful times here. When we had buses blowing up every few days and terrorists going into cafes supermarkets and fast food places and turning guns on people...well those are times that many people here are afraid. On a daily basis. And think ten times about their route to work, who gets on the bus with them, looking at every arab looking person with suspicon, etc. There is a growing population here, many children as well as adults, who live or lived in areas constantly being shelled who suffer from a constant PTSD (Post traumatic stress disorder). And there are people who look at the global situation of Israel with great fear for the future of Israel. One davens and hopes, but those who feel that way, emunah once again, is not "emunah" that Israel will no matter what last forever, it's emunah in the existence of Hashem. So in that, even for the religious, "emunah" doesn't help in the sense of your wanting reassurance that Hashem will keep us here forever. No promises on that score.

I don't want to sound pessimistic. There are those - often the right wing religious - with an emunah that says that we are safer here than anywhere in the world. But not all Israelis and even religious Israelis share that belief. That doesn't mean that they don't continue to live here...but the fact that so many Israelis go abroad and stay abroad - and NOT for economic reasons but becuase they simply want a "normal existence", says something.

Life in Israel on a daily basis can be considered normal in most places. But then something happens and there are people who look around and say "what????" "This is NOT normal". It is not normal to be shelled all the time by rockets and to be told to just sit there and show strength, that means, nursing mothers, old people, etc. just sit and be shelled. It is NOT normal to look at every arab as a potential terrorist and on the average have at least one terror attack a month in your country. It is NOT normal to have front page news that there is a country trying to get atomic weapons in their possession to wipe you off the map. It is NOT normal to have rhetoric from neighboring countries who won't recognize your existence and whose pinnacle of happiness for some of theiir citizens is to have their child become a religious martyr and blow themselves up in a crowded shopping center...on your block etc.

It's not a normal country. Lots of people just want normal for a while...that's the other side of the coin of some of the opinions expressed here...I'm not saying that all of this is my opinion but there are many, many Israelis who are very often tired of their abnormal situation and take the opportunity to get out of here, for a while, for a few years etc. in order to have some kind of a normal existence which doesn't include struggling all the time for everything along with the security situation on top of everything.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 06 2009, 9:26 am
I find many of the points you all make incredible.

I read a recent survey that about 20% of PA Arabs want to live in real peace with Jews, meaning they don't hate Jews like they've been brainwashed to, and want to live as a peaceful Israeli citizen under the Israeli government. They remember a time before Arafat when they were a free-er people.

Some of your posts remind me of the days after I returned here from Israel, and I was very nervous here. Nothing looked secure to me. It's long left me but I can relate to the people who said they were like that when they came to visit.

The plain truth of the matter is that my kids' school has implemented a bunch of security measures, and some of them scare the heck out of me, like my 3 yr old hiding in his classroom. He doesn't know what it's all for and I'm so grateful to the school that they're not ignoring this very real threat and dealing with it. I'd like to see some more things done but I don't see it happening.

I also figure I might as well be in Israel where at least people own guns and know how to use them. What can I say, I'm kinda jealous of you all.

I don't see the "Western world" as being more safe anymore. Well, not for too much longer. There are some pretty crazy things happening on this side of the world, and it makes me want to run.
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