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SAHM and cleaning ladies
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acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 8:16 pm
I grew up in a city where EVERYONE I knew had some sort of help everyday of the week almost, didnt make a difference if you worked or not, and most of us had live in housekeepers.

after staying that......

us kids are all grown up and I see many different outcomes of what I grew up in

I see SAHM with no help at all
I see working moms with no help at all
I see p/t working moms with no help at all
I see f/t working moms with help everyday
I see p/t working moms with help everday
and I see SAHM with help everyday

and I say to each their own!

as long as you arent harming your chidlren and you are following halachic money laws go right ahead and have your housekeeper.

I know a man who wnats his wife to have help everyday becuase he doesnt want his queen to be cleaning, she doesnt want it at all and only has help for a few hours a week.

where I do have problems is where you are not working, but not necessarily a SAHM. you arent working but your hosuekeepr is picking your kids up from school because you are too busy doing chessed. I think thats wrong, and I will judge on that.

personally I need someone home to watch my son while I work so I have someone here to keep eveyrthing clean for me at the same time, I cant remember the last load of laundry that I dont or dishes that I've washed (truth is on sunday cause I dotn like my kitchen messy) but she's here anyways and my son is napping for the majority of the time so my house is kept clean.

also just to clarify the money aspect of having a housekeeper, I know for myself if I tutor 1 person once a week, I can have a housekeeper for 6 hours that week. that means that in the amount of time that I can tutor someone I gain 6 hours of not cleaning toilets and folding laundry. For me that one hour is worth having the housekeeper.

If money was tight I would keep that money and apply it else where but B"H I dont have to.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 8:26 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
I've never had a cleaning lady ande I work full time. I haven't been for a manicure in many months, haven't been on vacation in over 22 yrs of marriage, except for one overnight.
So what did you do with all the money you saved?

(PS I never had and never will have a manicure).
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 8:38 pm
Mama Bear wrote:
(PS I never had and never will have a manicure).


better say bli neder !!!!

Anyway, if you toivel at the Pupa mikvah, a manicure and pedicure are included.
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chayitty




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 8:42 pm
some weeks I work 10 hrs. some I work none..(I'm a photographer working from my studio in my house) and no matter if I work or not I have cleaning help 3x a week. both my kids are in school but I simply hate cleaning and can b"h afford it. Affording cleaning help deosnt make a person rich, for me it's a priority!
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 8:55 pm
I am very confused. I am the first amother that responded that cleaning ladies ARE a necessity. My later post as a mother was supposed to convey the message that all of the items I listed are necessities not luxuries, just as a cleaning lady at this point in most peoples lives is a necessity rather than a luxury.

So Clarissa and ss321 why should I "grow up" and why am I in "Dream land" and what /where did I come across as saying I am entitled to?

My Goodness.
I'm new here and this is one tough group of women
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:01 pm
Okay, I don't understand what you're saying now. When you say, sure, we can have rice and beans, etc., it comes across that you're saying that eating meat is a necessity, as is having more than one pair of Shabbos shoes, etc. Very confusing. I prefer not to argue with amothers, but maybe you can clarify what you meant in that quote.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:07 pm
What I was trying to say is that just as technically people can survie on rice and beans, their kids can play with pots and pans instead of toys, people can have one outfit, in this day and age people dont do that. They do eat chicken and eggs and fish and pasta and they do buy their kids toys to play with. These items in my opinion have become a way of life for us. So to, a cleaning lady in my opinion is a way of life for many of us SAHM's.

Oh gosh- please dont "scream at me" if this doesnt make sense- Im trying- but apparently its not going too well here...
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mommalah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:11 pm
ss321 wrote:
amother wrote:


You know what-I can come up with a whole list of luxuries
How about toys- pot and pans for babies are good enough. You could eat rice and beans all week too.
Bikes for kids, cars, more than one shabbos outfit, having more than one pair of Shabbos shoes, more than one Sheitel..... You could go on and on. The point is that some thing have become an accepted way of light or necessities of life- people really DO need it. Otherwise you could say that about every single thing you have.


HUH???
I know people who dont have meat all week. that is exactly the problem with the mentality!!!!! like our taxes should pay for you to have chicken once a week (other htan shabbos which isthe only day that I can begin to even fathom teh "necessity"), chas veshulem should you have milchige and parve food only, meat is a necessity. it is not an "accepted way of life" it is a sick spoiled mentality that such things are "necessary."
I dont think for a minute that someone who can afford it, SAHM or not, should not have a cleaning lady (like someone put it before, sahm is for SAH mom not SAH maid....


In pre-war (2) Europe (for Jews at least, maybe everyone) eating meat was viewed as essential to one's health.
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:23 pm
amother wrote:
I am very confused. I am the first amother that responded that cleaning ladies ARE a necessity. My later post as a mother was supposed to convey the message that all of the items I listed are necessities not luxuries, just as a cleaning lady at this point in most peoples lives is a necessity rather than a luxury.

So Clarissa and ss321 why should I "grow up" and why am I in "Dream land" and what /where did I come across as saying I am entitled to?

My Goodness.
I'm new here and this is one tough group of women


Because what your argument was only as good as your examples, and many people don't agree with you that your examples are necessities either.

I have cleaning help and I'm quite reliant upon it but I still don't see how it's a necessity... if my circumstances were to change and I'd have to clean my own house I'd survive.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:27 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
(PS I never had and never will have a manicure).


better say bli neder !!!!

Anyway, if you toivel at the Pupa mikvah, a manicure and pedicure are included.
They trim our nails to the quick in satmar too. I dont call cutting nails a manicure.
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newlymarried




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:32 pm
they cut your nails for you?
you are not allowed to cut them yourself?
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:37 pm
I work in homes doing therapy for special children. One mother tells me without her cleaning lady she would not manage. She is her lifesavor. I would call that a necessary. My friend has anxiety-she is not settled or organized at this point(a smart normal person). She has cleaning help twice a week that makes her life much easier so she is calmer and can actually enjoy her day. I would call that a nesessary too. Another friend has 3 little kids and the dh gets upset if the house isn't spotless. She has cleaning help and their shalom bayis is better because of that. I have 4 lousy hours a week to wash up the house and it comes before other things on my list. Zahava Braunstien a"h said that she regrets not doing two things when she was younger-having more cleaning help (and using car services more.)
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:39 pm
flowerpower wrote:
Zahava Braunstien a"h said that she regrets not doing two things when she was younger-having more cleaning help (and using car services more.)


Really? I don't.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:47 pm
amother wrote:
I am very confused. I am the first amother that responded that cleaning ladies ARE a necessity. My later post as a mother was supposed to convey the message that all of the items I listed are necessities not luxuries, just as a cleaning lady at this point in most peoples lives is a necessity rather than a luxury.

So Clarissa and ss321 why should I "grow up" and why am I in "Dream land" and what /where did I come across as saying I am entitled to?

My Goodness.
I'm new here and this is one tough group of women


ok, its tough to argue with an "amother" imo, and also kinda pointless.
but ill do it because you say youre new here. sorry. welcome.
cleaning ladies are NOT a necessity. just like cars are NOT a necessity. I think a car is NECESSARY, in fact, I think two cars are NECESSARY, for us to live easily and in comfort. why? we both work, and we both work intotally different places not close to home. and when I get paged, I need to be there 5 minutes ago. not in an hour after 3 train transfers. still, you cannot tell me that in nyc, a city with an unbelievable public transportation system, it is necessary for a family to have two cars and that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make due with 1 or 0 cars. I am spoiled to the extent that I think 2 cars are necessary for us, because that is what we have grown accustomed to. people make it work with no cars. it would be especially difficult for me given my profession, less so for DH, but we would make it work.
NO, meat is not a NECESSITY.
a cleaning lady is not a NECESSITY. whether or not you have one, like I said, shouldnt depend on if you work or stay at home. on the one hand, working moms need them "more" because they arent home as much, and so dont have x during the day to clean. OTOH, SAHMs need htem "more" because, since they ARE home all day, chances are their kids are home more with them, rather than home with a full time babysitter/away with a full time babysitter/in day care, and that means the house gets dirty more quickly. but for any woman no its not a necessity. liek Ive said before. the only things that are aboslute necessities in this world (save ruchniyusdik "necessitites" such as, say, tefillin, or access to a mikvah) are FOOD (and beans are food, just like meat), WATER (doesnt matter if it is evian or tap) and a roof over your head. access to health care is important, but whehter or not is is a NECESSITY or a LUXURY is debatable. in the western world we are very spoiled but I think it is still a gray area.
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Lilkingdom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 9:48 pm
OP, why don't you come take care of my house and kids for a day. Then tell me wether I should keep my help or not.
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pecan




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:00 pm
Each to their own. I grew up with two grandmothers that each said different things. One grandmother works really hard doing everything herself and was never able to afford help. She still prefers doing all the work herself.
My other grandmother says that for a mother with small children, "The same way you have bread on your table, you should have cleaning help."
I think that cleaning help for mothers with small children borders on necessity, not luxury. A clean house brings peace of mind. I think it's more important to spend time with the kids, than to spend time doing heavy cleaning.
The people I know who have no cleaning help generally have dirty houses, or have worn themselves into shmattes. And again, I am speaking about mothers of young children.
But women need to be realistic with what they can afford, how much energy they have, and what kind of toll will having/not having cleaning help have on the family.
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:12 pm
Pecan, my grandmothers are also like that-- one had regular cleaning help and didn't apologize for it and the other never had help a day in her life and was proud of it! They are completely different personalities and value completely different things, and I definitely take after the first grandmother. My grandmother without cleaning help is the unflappable type, who whips up a seven course shabbos meal two hours before candle lighting, and does all of her own home repairs and painting, all while taking care of five kids and looking like a model, and still had time for friends and fun and hobbies.

I definitely did not take after her.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:14 pm
newlymarried wrote:
they cut your nails for you?
you are not allowed to cut them yourself?
you are allowed. they finish it up, fix it, whatever,I cant do my toenails myself.
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DevorahMonsey




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:22 pm
Many years ago, the grandparents of a friend of mine were in yechidus with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Her bubby had 3 children at the time and told the Rebbe she was having a hard time coping. The Rebbe told them that a wife should have help, and that with each additional child, there should be additional help. Then he smiled and looked at her bubby and said, "But when they leave, you shouldn't look in the corners." I think what the Rebbe was getting at (if I may) is that having help is important for a mother's state of mind, not so much a matter of a floor you can eat off of. If having help will help her keep her equilibrium, help her welcome each new child as the brocho it is and not an additional burden ch"v"sh (and how many times do we read that dilemma here on imamother?), put her in a better frame of mind for her husband, then in a way it's paying for itself. Be grateful, above all, that you've had the help, and don't nitpick. This particular exchange has been told over many, many times, and given many a young mother chizuk and removed any sense of guilt over getting the help she needs.
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acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 17 2009, 10:33 pm
just wanted to add

realize that we are different age groups on here, I think my age group (25-30/35) or even the one below me (18-25) are much weaker/spoiled generation than our parents (40-55).

I do feel that my mother in law who had 4 kids in 5 years, who worked, and only had a cleaning crew come in for a few hours every other week is majorly burned out right now.

she hates cleaning, she hates cooking, she only complains about it, she hates yomim tovim, etc.

I use hate becasue its not a dislike but a hatered.

I dont want ot be that, I want to enjoy my yomim tovim, I want family dinners to be a good memory for my kids, so I do have help so I am saine and happy. because if momma aint happy no one is happy.

thats who I am, and you can be more or less spoiled than me but that doesnt make me or you any better or worse off or more spoiled than anyone, as peacan said (and I said earlier) to each their own.

I feel like posts always turn into an argument of pointing fingers instead of just having a difference of opinions and not judging each other on those opinons but excepting each person with their opinons, and if you decide that a screen name is not of your mindset and they have different idiology than you then just ignore them and dont PM them.

maybe I should post my last paragraph in the announcement section for all to read!
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