Asking Shailos | Imamother

amother

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 9:33 am

I've seen a lot of discussion on these boards about whether to follow current medical advise or to use alternative methods or just ignore what the doctor says. Sometimes these alternative methods are in addition to the doctor's advice, sometimes contrary to it. Whenever I have asked a shaila about a medical decision, every Rov I have asked has told me to do what my doctor says, although if alternative methods are safe they can be used, too.

I'm curious how many people ask shailos before deciding what to do. For example, if you decide not to vaccinate, do you discuss it with your Rov first? If you decide not to give antibiotics or other medications, do you ask about that? Or do you just decide for yourself? How do you decide which time to ask and when to decide on your own?

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:04 am

I have asked some shailos about certain situations in the area of medicine. Most decisions, however, I make myself based on the medical information I have gathered (much of which comes from my doctor and other medical professionals). I don't expect a rav to be a doctor or to be fully informed in every area of medicine. Obviously, if I had a particular concern, I would seek out someone who is knowledgeable in that area. I have asked my usual rav about certain things and it was clear, unfortunately, that he had no idea what I was talking about.

If I make an "alternative" choice, I know there are many doctors out there who would support, or even recommend, that choice. I do not consider myself bound to follow the advice of a single doctor, who was usually chosen based on geographic location or insurance coverage, rather than on expertise or knowledge of my specific situation and preferences.

The halacha does not specify which doctor's advice one should follow. From what I have read, it seems to recommend following competent, or, even better, expert advice. Who is competent and/or expert is subject to debate.

amother

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:11 am

Thanks for deleting them. I'm new here and didn't know how. I posted as amother because I've seen so many people get bashed for these type of topics.

It seems to me that for something as important as your health or your child's health it would be critical to follow daas torah. As everything is found in the torah, our Rabbonim are our guides for everything in life.

After reading these threads, however, it seems to me that people are just making up their own minds about what to do in medical situations. From discussions I have had with my rov, it seems that in almost every situation the halacha is to follow current medical advice, but there are so many people on these threads who do things counter to current medical advice.

I'm therefore curious which rabonim the people who go against medical advice go to, or if they just decide on their own without asking. If you decide on your own, how do you know that that is what the torah wants from you?

amother

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:17 am

amother wrote:

BinahYeteirah wrote:

The halacha does not specify which doctor's advice one should follow. From what I have read, it seems to recommend following competent, or, even better, expert advice. Who is competent and/or expert is subject to debate.

OP here--

I see what you are saying. However, in the situation where the majority of doctors feel one way and only a few disagree, how do you know what to do? Usually halacha follows the majority, so how can you follow a minority group without asking a rov?

I'll use vaccines for an example, since they are such a hot topic. Most doctors today around the world recommend vaccinating. There are very few who say not to. There are some people out there who say not to as well, but compared to the number of doctors recommending vaccines they are still a minority. If I had to decide by myself, I'd think that we should vaccinate because the majority say to do so. (I've also never heard of a rov saying not to vaccinate). If you choose not to, how do you make that decision from a HALACHIC standpoint, not an emotional one?

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:20 am

"Current medical advice" can include many concepts such as not having more than 4 or so children for the health of the mother, vaccinating all young girls with Gardasil, and automatically using birth control after each child for the health of the mother, yet these things are not necessarily in line with the Torah viewpoint. It is more complicated that simply following current medical advice. At one time many things that are now known to be very unhealthy were condoned.

amother

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:26 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

OP again:

OK, so then my original question stands. It would seem to me that in such a changing environment, the only constant thing is Torah. Therefore, we should all be asking our rabonim when deciding whether to go with medical advise or not. In the cases you gave above, It is necessary to ask a rov before using birth control, because halacha tells us what to do, not medical advise. I haven't encountered guardisil yet. For other major questions I would think that it is also necessary. Yet, on these forums it seems that people make their own decisions.

Obviously, for some things it is not necessary. If my son scrapes his knee, I don't need to ask whether to wash it with soap and water. But, when it comes to more major issues like testing for infections like GBS or vaccinating, shouldn't a rov be consulted?

It is certainly not possible for every rov to be an expert in medicine, but there are rabonim who specialize in this area who are available to ask.

gryp

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:31 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

What is like asking the Rav if you should smoke, and expecting to hear a "yes" because everyone did it? Just following current medical advice? I just want to be sure I understand you. Smile

Following current medical advice just because everyone else does, to me is like smoking back then just because everyone else did.

gryp

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Amother, did your parents ask a Rav before vaccinating you?

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:36 am

That seems like a very circular argument. The halacha is to follow expert medical advice. Thus the Torah viewpoint of what decision to make in a particular medical situation changes just as often as medical advice.

Obviously, there are situations where we go against current practice, because the halacha is uncompromising, such as in end-of-life issues and family planning issues. For everything else, the halacha is to follow expert advice.

rydys

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 2:55 pm

I think this is a great point. Perhaps this is a better way of asking what I think the OP was getting at. If the halacha says that we should do what modern medicine tells us to, then shouldn't we have to ask a shaila if not doing that?

For example, with the vaccines. The accepted medical practice today is to vaccinate, and most doctors today recommend vaccination. According to halacha, then, one should vaccinate. If a person does not want to vaccinate, they should discuss this with a Posek who understands medicine and see if there is a heter not to vaccinate.

This is certainly what we do with end of life issues. If medical opinion is to take someone off of a ventilator, we call a Rav who is familiar with medical halacha.

It is true that the Posek's response will differ based on current medical theory, because we are only human. When doctors thought that cigarrettes were healthy and prescribed them for weight loss and hypertension, many Rabbonim smoked. Now that it has become known that they are not healthy, I don't know if you will find a Rov who will say it is OK to smoke. The halacha hasn't changed, but the information available has changed

Tzippora

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 8:46 pm

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Not commenting on the other items, but I didn't notice that vaccinating with Gardasil was against halacha. shock

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Jul 13 2009, 10:03 pm

Tzippora wrote:

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Not commenting on the other items, but I didn't notice that vaccinating with Gardasil was against halacha. shock

No, I did not mean to imply that. Some frum people, even people who would not generally hesitate to follow standard medical advice, are very up-in-arms about Gardasil. I don't think most rabbonim would insist on parents following this bit of medical advice if asked.

On the other hand, there may be a some authorities who would allow families to limit themselves to 4 offspring as matter of course and I am pretty sure that there are poskim who automatically allow BC after each child.

My point wasn't to list medical advice that represent absolute issurim, just to show how "current medical advice" is not something one simply accepts without taking into account other considerations.