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Would you tell someone off
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would you tell them off
yes  
 53%  [ 21 ]
no  
 46%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 39



greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 2:13 pm
if you saw someone doing something disrespectful would you tell them off ???

over the past month I saw 2 disrespectful situations and told each kid off ... I have no qualms - someone needs to tell them ...

situation 1:

I was painting at someone's house and a boy came knocking on the open door - I asked who he's looking for and he said "wrong house" - I'm like how would you know unless you told me who you're looking for ... he wouldn't give me the time of day but the homeowner came down and he talked to her - he was collecting tzedaka for an organization and she told him to come back later when her husband was home ... it dawned upon me that I was wearing paint clothes which included pants because I was going up & down a ladder ...

I went after him and asked him what was up with that ... he claims there was no mezuza on the door and he only wanted to collect from jews - I'm like first of all there were 2 mezuzas cause I noticed the oddity - second maybe this family just moved in and didn't get a chance to put up their mezuzas yet which didn't matter cause there were mezuzas ... so what else could it be but me in pants ... mind you this is a neighborhood where there are a lot of frum mizrachi families who wear pants ... so I told him that he would miss an opportunity to let someone give tzedaka because of looks - how offensive that can be to some people and his cause would lose out on "tainted monies" because of his poor judgement in who should give tzedaka and who shouldn't ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

situation 2:

at the kosher grocery in town it was early in the morning and a few boys 12ish in black pants & white shirts were getting some things ... one boy starts speaking gibberish copying the checkout lady who speaks russian - one other adult and I were shocked, so I told the boy that wasn't nice even asked him before if he was copying the lady and admitted to ... so I told him it was rude and he should apologize - he moves closer to her then proceeds to utter words under his breath - which I suddenly realized was a brocha over a cookie - so I asked him if he thought Hashem heard his brocha considering it came before the apology and what he thought all his frumkeit stood for ... he ignored me - so I told him to apologize 3 or four more times until he finally did ...

honest if I would've seen some sort of remorse I would have let it go - but he couldn't care less until I pushed the apology ... if I knew his name I would have surely called his mother ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so what would you do ?!
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spoons




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 2:33 pm
so funny cuz I do the same at times and my friends make fun of me.
My scenarios were: Boys were throwing snowballs at passing cars. I stopped my car (noone was behind me) and yelled at them- so dangerous, can cause accident, chillul Hashem, etc. they ran away when I asked what yeshiva they were in Smile
In Boro Park some young girls were staring at me and my friend years ago (we don't dress like they do) and looking us up and down so I said "good Shabbos!" with some attitude Smile She ignored me and I said "Yes, we're Jewish too!" lol....My friend told me to ignore her, just a kid, but it just got to me- and her mother was right there too.

Overall, when kids are doing things that are wrong and causing chillul Hashem, I feel like someone has to say something. The problem is when the parents are standing RIGHT THERE and yet don't say anything themselves.
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tomorrow




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 2:43 pm
Oh yeah, I tell people off!

Most recent example would be yesterday. I'd taken most of my kids to the Old City for the Sivuv Shearim. We got on a bus back to the bus station from out side Sha'ar Ashpot and the bus was packed. It stopped at the first stop and the doors opened. It turns out there was some jerk trying to get off the bus. The poor guy standing next to me was about 20-22 years old, a new, not frum French oleh chadash. He seemed totally overwhelmed by the whole thing. Who knows what was going on in his head, new oleh, no kippah, just came from the Kotel. In any case, Jerko pushed his way through to get off, turned around to Oleh Chadash and said, "I can tell you're French because you're so stupid!" I shouted after the jerk, "Baruch Hashem for kibbutz galuyot! Didn't you need this reminder that Mashiach is on his way?!"
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:07 pm
Not only do I not "tell people off," I actively avoid the company of those who do, and I teach my children to avoid such situations and people, as well.

If a genuinely dangerous situation exists (such as boys throwing rocks, for example), I certainly condone intervening as well as calling for backup, if needed. Likewise, I might say something privately to an older child or teenager who was obviously mocking someone. But that's definitely as far as I would go unless I knew the mother.

Unfortunately, I've had the experience too often in life of having been the "tellee" rather than the "teller". In virtually every case, the person doing the "telling off" had either grossly misinterpreted something, had some particular axe to grind, or simply didn't have all the facts.

I've also noticed that most people who feel it is their responsibility to "tell off" the rest of us have little interest in being proven wrong. If we try to explain ourselves, they want to argue that our explanations aren't legitimate. If we try to apologize for whatever set them off, they simply go on and on . . .

Anyone who is legitimately interested in correcting someone's behavior l'sheim haShmayim doesn't "tell off" others, but rather thinks of the best way to handle the situation. Granted, there are times when a little drama is in order, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. In general, "telling off" others simply adds more unpleasantness to the world than already exists.

How can you be so certain that your interpretation is correct that you are willing to embarrass someone? Again, there may be cases where a legitimate danger precludes such a concern, but those cases are not typical. Having been falsely "told off" myself, I wouldn't want to risk the horrific punishment that no doubt awaits people who are so smug that they believe themselves able to divine the inner thoughts and motivations of others.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:10 pm
you know fox - I was there - I saw and heard for myself the actual situation and gave each kid in these 2 scenarios a chance to explain themselves before I reproved them ... somebody needs to teach them proper behavior ... no different than stopping a kid for hurling rocks at others ...
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:13 pm
Fox here in EY where being pushy, rude and sometimes doing dangerous things are the norm I spend my life stopping kids from doing such things, telling them off, forcing them (literally by twisting their hand behind their back) from hurting other children etc.

I have been known to march kids to their homes and knock on their doors and speak to their mothers or fathers.

I have been known call the police to get delinquents to stop harrasing homeless.

But I work with the social services so I know the drill.

The only people I don't do this with are druggies as I'm afraid of getting stabbed with a needle, But anyone else? Beware of Freidasima, protector of the poor and the downtrodden.

This is a dog eat dog country and the only thing people understand here sometimes is that kind of behavior.

And b"h it's a Jewish country so I'm not afraid of the non jews or of being knifed while I'm doing it.
I wouldn't do it in Golus though...I'd be too scared to do it except to a frum kid.
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jerusalem-girl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:25 pm
It's a mitzva to reprimand someone who is doing something wrong. As long as we remain silent, we're accomplices in the act. The only exceptions are when you know someone is not going to listen to you, or in public, not to shame him. Must say I have not been very good about the former.

I once saw a bochur casually drop a candy wrapper on the floor. I asked him, in Hebrew, 'the floor is the garbage bin?' He stared at me. My Hebrew was accented, I was not wearing a black tichel, and, it gets worse, I was talking to a guy!!! I stared back. He didn't know what I wanted. I repeated my question. He stared a little more, and then picked the wrapper up. Phew!
Just yesterday I saw a woman throw a cup onto the floor after she finished drinking. I couldn't say anything, because she was with her kids. I just stared, continued to walk, turned back in disbelief.

My dh spoke to a group of boys after they created a real chillul hashem situation in a crowded area. They didn't want to walk up the path to Kever Shmuel, on the yahrtzeit, because there were ladies there. So they broke past the barricades, and ignored police orders to get back in, and had to be chased back in at which point they started screaming...and were being very rude indeed. The told dh 'the police have to learn a lesson'. Hubby said, you have to learn a lesson, in acting like a mensch. His words were not received.

You win some, you lose some.
But I appreciate, not immediately, when someone points out that I'm doing something wrong. Then I can change for the better.
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jerusalem-girl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:27 pm
freidasima wrote:
Fox here in EY where being pushy, rude and sometimes doing dangerous things are the norm I spend my life stopping kids from doing such things, telling them off, forcing them (literally by twisting their hand behind their back) from hurting other children etc.

I have been known to march kids to their homes and knock on their doors and speak to their mothers or fathers.

I have been known call the police to get delinquents to stop harrasing homeless.

But I work with the social services so I know the drill.

The only people I don't do this with are druggies as I'm afraid of getting stabbed with a needle, But anyone else? Beware of Freidasima, protector of the poor and the downtrodden.

This is a dog eat dog country and the only thing people understand here sometimes is that kind of behavior.

And b"h it's a Jewish country so I'm not afraid of the non jews or of being knifed while I'm doing it.
I wouldn't do it in Golus though...I'd be too scared to do it except to a frum kid.


Kol hakavod!
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tomorrow




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:30 pm
I'd like to put in my own cheers for Freidasima as well -- woohoo!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:30 pm
See, here's the problem I have: it's all very well to say, "I was there and I know what happened," but says who? If someone genuinely needs to stop dangerous behavior, fine. But, frankly, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the ability of some stranger to adequately assess the situation.

Let me give you a recent example: a neighbor "told off" my DD, embarrassing her greatly, because of the way DD spoke to her father. Now, true, DD was disrespectful. But Mrs. Nosy Neighbor is completely unaware of a specific family dynamic that created the situation and for which we receive professional help. DD is now even less trusting, and Mrs. Nosy Neighbor managed to stir up a number of side issues that had previously been put to rest.

I know Mrs. Nosy Neighbor well enough to know that she genuinely believed she was "telling off" my DD l'sheim Shemayim. I also know that she is riddled with insecurities and is often looking to find fault with other people's children. She's probably feeling very pleased that she took action rather than, in her view, letting my DD "get away" with less than perfect behavior.

And yet she caused a terrible mess with her meddling and her monumental ego. I realize that in some cultures, "telling off" is considered more acceptable. That is precisely why I don't live places where such things are common. I would rather risk letting someone "get away" with something inappropriate that do the kind of damage my neighbor did.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:37 pm
freidasima wrote:
This is a dog eat dog country and the only thing people understand here sometimes is that kind of behavior.


Wow! You really focused my attention before Tisha B'Av. It is bad enough that this is the way it is; it's even more discouraging that we consider it a fact of life, like the weather. May we be redeemed speedily!
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spoons




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:40 pm
Fox wrote:
See, here's the problem I have: it's all very well to say, "I was there and I know what happened," but says who? If someone genuinely needs to stop dangerous behavior, fine. But, frankly, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the ability of some stranger to adequately assess the situation.

Let me give you a recent example: a neighbor "told off" my DD, embarrassing her greatly, because of the way DD spoke to her father. Now, true, DD was disrespectful. But Mrs. Nosy Neighbor is completely unaware of a specific family dynamic that created the situation and for which we receive professional help. DD is now even less trusting, and Mrs. Nosy Neighbor managed to stir up a number of side issues that had previously been put to rest.

I know Mrs. Nosy Neighbor well enough to know that she genuinely believed she was "telling off" my DD l'sheim Shemayim. I also know that she is riddled with insecurities and is often looking to find fault with other people's children. She's probably feeling very pleased that she took action rather than, in her view, letting my DD "get away" with less than perfect behavior.

And yet she caused a terrible mess with her meddling and her monumental ego. I realize that in some cultures, "telling off" is considered more acceptable. That is precisely why I don't live places where such things are common. I would rather risk letting someone "get away" with something inappropriate that do the kind of damage my neighbor did.


In this situation, I wouldn't say anything. It would also embarrass the father that his daughter is being disrespectful in front of others.
I think, maybe I'm wrong, but most of the situations listed here are under the "you're being dangerous" category. Also, it is when their parents are NOT there. I wouldn't say anything to a kid if their parent was with them...I don't think!
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:40 pm
fox - that scenario is entirely different than reprimanding someone out of line ... her father was there to figure out what to do and that was more meddling ...
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onlyme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:41 pm
I don't tell anyone off for one simple reason: Too shy! I know it's a problem (not just in this area, of course) but I just can't open my mouth to "give it in" to someone I don't know. There have been times (oh, too many times!) in which I felt like kicking myself for not speaking up, but.. maybe one day...
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jerusalem-girl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:43 pm
onlyme wrote:
I don't tell anyone off for one simple reason: Too shy! I know it's a problem (not just in this area, of course) but I just can't open my mouth to "give it in" to someone I don't know. There have been times (oh, too many times!) in which I felt like kicking myself for not speaking up, but.. maybe one day...

That's what imamother is for, lol. If you get too shy, just press the anon button and off you go, no one stopping you from saying whatever.
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onlyme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 3:48 pm
jerusalem-girl wrote:
onlyme wrote:
I don't tell anyone off for one simple reason: Too shy! I know it's a problem (not just in this area, of course) but I just can't open my mouth to "give it in" to someone I don't know. There have been times (oh, too many times!) in which I felt like kicking myself for not speaking up, but.. maybe one day...

That's what imamother is for, lol. If you get too shy, just press the anon button and off you go, no one stopping you from saying whatever.


And get bashed over the head for anonymously bashing over the head?! No way!!
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:00 pm
I'm basically with Fox on this one.

I would only tell-off a stranger if he was doing something dangerous, such as running into a busy street without looking or the throwing snowballs at cars example.

I certainly don't think it was proper to say anything in Greenfire's first example. The only thing it would be likely to accomplish is to make the boy less likely to go around collecting tzedaka in the future, since he may then have to deal with crazy, Immodestly-dressed (according to him) ladies running after him and telling him who he should talk to or not.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:09 pm
Atali wrote:

I certainly don't think it was proper to say anything in Greenfire's first example. The only thing it would be likely to accomplish is to make the boy less likely to go around collecting tzedaka in the future, since he may then have to deal with crazy, Immodestly-dressed (according to him) ladies running after him and telling him who he should talk to or not.


thanks for calling me crazy ... you would be interested enough to know that his mother was pleased with what I told him and the boy learned a valuable lesson ... tzedaka is not only for those dressed in yeshivish/chassidish garb ... besides I was defending myself and had the right to tell him he was wrong in his approach ... considering the neighborhood is mostly jews of varying levels
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:15 pm
I don't think there's ever a need to "tell someone off." Gently correct, yes. But "telling off" -- no.

If you're assuming that someone is guilty, why should they listen? And what's the chance that criticizing a stranger will have the desired effect?

I do think it's necessary to comment sometimes, but comment, nicely, assuming the best, without throwing accusations of "chillul Hashem" or "what would your mother think" or whatever. For example, instead of "it's such a hillul Hashem that you kids are making so much noise out here late at night. What school do you go to?" something like (smiling apologetically, but speaking with confidence), "Excuse me, but it's very late and many people here are trying to sleep. Do you mind moving to a different area?"

Or instead of assuming a child is treating you a certain way because s/he thinks you aren't frum, just gently point out that their behavior could lead to that assumption.

I don't care how deluded the more cautious approach might sound, I think that in most cases there's no excuse to do otherwise. And an overly cautious, overly naive approach is less risky than jumping in yelling, IMO (less of a risk that you'll do something wrong, that is). And more likely to actually work, instead of just helping us let off steam.

Another point -- we have no idea what other people are going through. Maybe a kid who doesn't want to talk to you is painfully shy. Maybe a teenager acting wild just lost a parent. We have no idea. The words a person might say when they think of a teen as "that obnoxious kid who was just rude for no reason" would be different if they knew the situation better + knew just how much pain the "obnoxious kid" was in + what a crazy situation they were dealing with at home (for example).

And in response to Fox's example specifically - a child shouldn't be corrected in front of their parent except in an extreme situation, that poses an immediate, physical threat. And one should be far more cautious in correcting an older child, and even when it's necessary, should get their side of the story first.

All that said, I definitely think there is room to correct people when necessary. Especially younger children, who just don't know better. If a child tries to take a toy from my child, for example, I will definitely say "sweetheart, that's her toy, please give it back" (despite the occasional talk about rough, wild Israeli kids, this approach does work, in my experience). Or if they aren't being careful, I'll say "please watch out for the baby." Etc.

And if an older child is engaged in dangerous or very obnoxious behavior I would also say something. Ditto for an adult, for that matter. ("very obnoxious" = something along the lines of disturbing the peace - screaming loudly in the stairwell for minutes on end, for example). But again, only gently ("oh, that's just you in the stairwell? I'm so glad, I thought someone was hurt out here. Do you mind keeping it down?" -- I'd rather be the dumb American than the crazy mean American.)
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:22 pm
so change the "telling off" to "had a word with" - so much more pleasant ... Tongue Out
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