would you tell someone off

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:48 pm

I have actually 'had words' with children who were acting disrespectful to their moms in front of me. I should preface it with only when I am good friends with the mom. I usually tell them 'This is my friend your speaking to and I wont stand by letting someone treat my friend this way. I hope you wouldnt let anyone speak to your friends that way when somebody talks to them that way.'
Its one thing for kid to speak disrespectfully to their mom in private- that is their business, but if they are doing it in front of me its also disrespectful to me. And I want the kids to know two things, - one that their mom is a person too. Second is that if you see someone treating your friend badly you should stand up and say something.

Atali

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 4:57 pm

greenfire wrote:

Atali wrote:

I certainly don't think it was proper to say anything in Greenfire's first example. The only thing it would be likely to accomplish is to make the boy less likely to go around collecting tzedaka in the future, since he may then have to deal with crazy, Immodestly-dressed (according to him) ladies running after him and telling him who he should talk to or not.

thanks for calling me crazy ... you would be interested enough to know that his mother was pleased with what I told him and the boy learned a valuable lesson ... tzedaka is not only for those dressed in yeshivish/chassidish garb ... besides I was defending myself and had the right to tell him he was wrong in his approach ... considering the neighborhood is mostly jews of varying levels

I don't think you are crazy. I understand where you are coming from

But if I were a child or teenager on the receiving end of this, those would be my thoughts.

superjew

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 5:04 pm

spoons wrote:

so funny cuz I do the same at times and my friends make fun of me.
My scenarios were: Boys were throwing snowballs at passing cars. I stopped my car (noone was behind me) and yelled at them- so dangerous, can cause accident, chillul Hashem, etc. they ran away when I asked what yeshiva they were in Smile

In Boro Park some young girls were staring at me and my friend years ago (we don't dress like they do) and looking us up and down so I said "good Shabbos!" with some attitude Smile

She ignored me and I said "Yes, we're Jewish too!" lol....My friend told me to ignore her, just a kid, but it just got to me- and her mother was right there too.

Overall, when kids are doing things that are wrong and causing chillul Hashem, I feel like someone has to say something. The problem is when the parents are standing RIGHT THERE and yet don't say anything themselves.

I do the same thing!!! If someone is staring me up and down I always wave to them and if they look confused I say, do I know you? I dont know, you were looking at me in this way...lol They totally get the picture of what I'm trying to do lol
Me and my husband love telling these type of people off because they are just being rude and dont know any better, which is soo frustrating to me.
We also stopped the car in the snow saying its a big chillul Hashem and how dangerous it could be etc
We have done numerous things in numerous occasions... LOL

solo

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 5:27 pm

im not the sort to make a scene so unless its something extreme I dont usually say anything
but when I do its always in a relaxed way without being pushy.
I would probably have told that boy he was being very rude and seemed more foolish than the russian speaking woman he was making fun of, but I wouldnt have made him appologize
and as for the first story I would never have insisted to the boy that I knew what he was thinking. I hate when people do that to me. sounds like u had a whole story in ur head bout the pants thing.

every now and then someone tells me off and I wonder are they really such angry people or are they just more comfortable acting so rude and aggressive towards strangers? would they speak to their friends that way?
just last week I was feeling so lucky to have found a parking spot on a busy boro park block. as I stepped out of my car a man rushed towards me and yelled "you have some chutzpah parking there, ive been waiting for that spot."
I apologized and said I hadnt seen him waiting
so he said thats a lie I beeped and flashed my lights and you parked there any way thats some chutzpah.
wow, I said, talk about being dan lecaf zechus. with all the honking that goes on in boro park how was I to know it was being directed at me?
I also informed him that if he continued to yell then I had no intention of moving my car
so he mumbled something and stormed back to his car while I moved mine.

that was a really long story to make a small point.
1. he was wrong in assuming that I "stole" his spot. I honestly hadnt seen him. so dont make assumptions
2. the huge confrontation was unnecessary he could just as well have asked me to move with out yelling and accusing

Fox

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 5:33 pm

JC wrote:

This was precisely the situation I described. Here's the problem: my neighbor thinks she's good friends with us, and we are friendly. But I don't consider her as good a friend as she considers me. Even were that the case, not all of us share everything in our lives even with "good friends."

So we're back to where we started: it is just way too easy for most of us to get on our soapboxes and claim we're simply being assertive when, in fact, we're really venting frustrations that may be only tangentially related to the offense.

It also bothers me a great deal that it is usually children or teenagers who are singled out for such treatment; there is an element of bullying that is really off-putting. Many people feel quite comfortable speaking to young people in way that they would never approach an older person -- again, defending themselves by saying that they are entitled to provide parenting on the fly if they see an offense committed. Of course, if the child/teenager becomes defensive or argumentative, that's used as further proof of his/her general bad middos.

Most rabbonim agree that the mitzvah of reproof is virtually impossible for people to do correctly in our day; the vast majority of people are unable to separate their own egos from the situation. Until that changes, I'll advise my children that strangers attempting to act in loco parentis are still strangers -- and should be treated as such.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 5:42 pm

I wasn't using "having words" or "commenting" just as a "clean" way to say telling off or yelling. I think there's a real distinction between the two.

Telling off involves: 1. assuming you have the whole story, 2. refusing to listen to/ accept explanations, 3. some indication that the person you're speaking to is morally inferior (telling them what they're doing is a chillul Hashem, for instance). Or demanding a certain behavior (eg, "apologize right now," or "pick that up").

Commenting involves: 1. assuming there may be more to the story, 2. assuming that the person you're speaking with is essentially good + with good middot, and is simply making a mistake at this particular moment, and 3. not pushing the matter further if your audience isn't receptive (except in cases of immediate physical danger).

JC -- If the mother is right there, why would you be the one to correct the child? Don't you think they'd find that confusing?

It's not like a child sticking up for a friend, or shouldn't be anyway. A child sticks up for his friend because the friend needs his support. If the mother needs your support when dealing with her child, she's in serious parenting trouble.

red sea

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 5:52 pm

Fox wrote:

JC wrote:

That is what I have heard too, it is virtually impossible today to properly give tochacha, so better not than do additional wrongs. I think some of the requirements to meet are having fully mastered the commandment yourself and also never doing so in front of any other people. And no, this doesn't apply to dangerous situations. I don't think the first situation green mentioned needed to be a "telling off" simply stating the facts gives the boy enough info to understand he misjudged without causing any problems and most people would learn from that.

smilingmom

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 6:32 pm

There are many situations where I have told people off.
Some examples from this week.
1- Kids on my block were writing in front of their house with chalk, negative things about non jews (Albeit, in Hebrew). There parents saw it and did not reprimand them. I asked them to wash it off.

2- Some little boys (6-7 y.o.) on my block are totally unsupervised, they run across the street without looking, play with lighters and often interfere with the girls ball playing. I spoke to the mother and she said she can't control her boys. I told off the mother and told her I would remain in her house until her husband comes home so I can talk to him. I also always take away any dangerous items from them.

spoons

Wed, Jul 22 2009, 9:52 pm

JC wrote:

I wouldn't say anything in front of the friend- wouldn't she be embarrassed? Maybe go over to the girl afterwards, privately to 'have words' with her?

octopus

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 12:07 am

Fox wrote:

Not only do I not "tell people off," I actively avoid the company of those who do, and I teach my children to avoid such situations and people, as well.

If a genuinely dangerous situation exists (such as boys throwing rocks, for example), I certainly condone intervening as well as calling for backup, if needed. Likewise, I might say something privately to an older child or teenager who was obviously mocking someone. But that's definitely as far as I would go unless I knew the mother.

Unfortunately, I've had the experience too often in life of having been the "tellee" rather than the "teller". In virtually every case, the person doing the "telling off" had either grossly misinterpreted something, had some particular axe to grind, or simply didn't have all the facts.

I've also noticed that most people who feel it is their responsibility to "tell off" the rest of us have little interest in being proven wrong. If we try to explain ourselves, they want to argue that our explanations aren't legitimate. If we try to apologize for whatever set them off, they simply go on and on . . .

Anyone who is legitimately interested in correcting someone's behavior l'sheim haShmayim doesn't "tell off" others, but rather thinks of the best way to handle the situation. Granted, there are times when a little drama is in order, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. In general, "telling off" others simply adds more unpleasantness to the world than already exists.

How can you be so certain that your interpretation is correct that you are willing to embarrass someone? Again, there may be cases where a legitimate danger precludes such a concern, but those cases are not typical. Having been falsely "told off" myself, I wouldn't want to risk the horrific punishment that no doubt awaits people who are so smug that they believe themselves able to divine the inner thoughts and motivations of others.

I cannot agree more with this post. Even the phrase "telling someone off" has a certain smugness about it. I was a victim once to a public humiliation on a city bus by a very self righteous woman. The city bus was over packed with school students (ironically with the eighth grade boys that I had just subbed for). They weren't wearing their kippahs but I looked blatantly religious. Well, I'm short, and I could barely reach the bar on top and I wasn't near any poles or seats to hold on to, and when the bus made a short stop everybody kept on knocking into eachother. I saw an empty seat and sort of walked/fell into it. Well....this woman started YELLING on top of her lungs that I pushed one of the poor little boys and that I'm basically a disgusting human being and whenever I tried to say a word she raised her hand and said, "no! no! I don't want to hear!" I know I did not push anyone, though a few backpacks had knocked into me more than a few times, but what was the pits was that this was a class that I had just subbed for. Even the boy in question looked shocked and humiliated. What I should have done was ask the boy if I pushed him by accident but I was so shocked I just melted into my seat. And I'm a meek little chicken irl. I wouldn't hurt a fly. I just don't think that was normal on the lady's part.

greenfire, while I think it's correct to pull someone over if they acted incorrectly and to quietly correct their behavior (on rare occasion) I don't think it's right to tell someone off most of the time. The teenager in the first scenario probably just rolled his eyes. you really think he learned some grandiose lesson from a gantze speech? eh, if I know teenagers, he didn't....

freidasima

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 12:20 am

Ok here's the thing.
You have to differentiate between situations and perpetrators.
You have to know when to take a step back and call the authorities.
You have to know how far you can do something yourself.
And MOST OF ALL, you have to know the law, very very very well. There is where my training comes in, I know how much and in what situations in EY at least I am allowed to touch a child, where and when.

Situation one: kids throwing stones. If they are little kids you get them to stop. If they are big husky teenagers you call the police. If they are charedi shabab at a demonstration you call the newspapers so that they can have their day in the press. If they are arab kids and you are driving to a yishuv you shoot the bloodly #$%% out of them.

Situation two: kids torturing animals. If they are little kids you stop them. If they won't stop you are allowed to turn their hand behind their back as long as you don't leave marks to get them to stop and you are allowed to march them home. If they won't tell you where "home" is you are allowed to march them to the local police station. As the local police near my house know me well, one of my kids volunteers there, they are used to this. Sometimes it's enough for me to tell that kid to put on their volunteer uniform and cap and give the kid a talking to. Scares the living you know what out of the little ones to see this big hulking police, or I get my chayal when he is home to go in uniform and talk to them.
If they are big kids, teenagers doing this, as we know in EY that you can't teach them at that age not to - there is a "culture" of torturing animals here, it's absolutely disgusting, you are - believe it or not - allowed to use a slingshot to take potshots at the kids to get them to leave. I'm a mean hand from my first floor window with a slingshot - David move over! Yes, it's turkish law that still holds here in EY!!! Slingshots are ok. Why not talk to them? Because if they are hoods they can hurt YOU and not only the cat they are trying to cut its belly open.

Situation three: someone throws something on to the floor. Tell them to pick it up and show them where the garbage is. If they do, fine. Don't berate them, just tell them to do it and that the floor isn't a garbage pail and you are sure their mother didn't teach them to do this. If they won't do it, pick it up yourself. If you berate you about it or make fun of you, as they walk away, trip them. Literally.
Teaches them something. It's also allowed by law.
Nothing against "accidently tripping someone".

Sounds disgusting huh - slingshots, tripping, etc. Well in EY they teach you not to be a sucker and this is a country that many people unfortunately only understand violence. Tis the culture of many groups here. Teach them that the hard way if they get really nasty with you? They learn their lesson.

And be swift of eye, of hand and of foot so that you can outrun them when they try to get you. I have had to climb a tree (literally) to get away from kids once that I berated verbally about trying to kill a cat. The first time my son taught me about the slingshot business and I checked it out that it is legal, I was horrified !!!! But it works, every single time. And those kids never come back to our park to torture cats (Jeruslaem is full of strays). Unfortunately there are always new kids to do it, but not the same ones.

Yeah I know, be horrified, but inner city locals here will understand me, no?

Seraph

Thu, Jul 23 2009, 2:57 am

My rule: No telling off anyone. With two exceptions:

If they're doing something dangerous.

If they're harming my child/me.

The first rule-
Three examples within the past year:
I saw some 3, 4 and 5 year old kids lighting a fire with no parental supervision. Its dangerous, they're too young to know safety rules. I marched them home and told their parents, in addition to putting out the fire in their presence.

I saw some boys throwing stones- I berated them and told them to stop, because they were throwing them at the walkway where I was walking.

I was in the park and these 7 and 8 year old boys were taking broken planks of wood and throwing them down off the top of the two story slide. I told them that they must stop, someone can walk beneath and get hurt. They refused. They claimed they were building a fort. I said if they want to build a fort, they can build it somewhere aside for the communal playground. They didnt listen. I wrestled with them, grabbed the boards away, and threw them outside the gates of the park. I said "Build your fort somewhere else. You come back to the park with this wood and I'll just do the same." They tried to test me, I repeated what I did before. They left it alone.

Three incidents in the past year, not a common occurrence.

Also, if someone pushes my son or takes away a toy from him, or hurts him, or whatever, I gently ask them to please not do that. I interfere when my son is getting hurt, but I can't and don't protect the rest of the kids in the world... Or if a kid walks off with my stroller because they think its a toy- I tell them to let go, its mine and they have no permission to take it.

I do NOT approve of giving mussar to someone you think is acting inappropriately if no one is physically at risk. It is not your place, it infuriates them, etc. And I NEVER demand an apology. All I can do is force them to physically stop if its one of the above situations, if talking nicely doesnt have the desired effect.
I've been subjected to mussar here, whether nursing in public or tznius or whatever, and I'll tell you- mussar makes you less likely to do what they want- in fact, after getting mussar, I feel like davka doing that same thing to spite the person. Mussar=not a good idea.