Anyone making aliya be warned!!

Peanut2

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 12:43 am

caveat - this definitely applies to a katin chozer, but I don't think it applies to an ezrach oleh (not sure, though, so find out):

If you're not a KC you can move to Israel and not make aliyah, and then make aliyah formally and get tax breaks, university tuition paid for you, rent subsudies, etc. If you're KC, then those rights begin after you spend a year in Israel. (and that year must be on a "recognized program", yeshiva, sem, whatever. they're not insanely strict about this.) If you spend more than a year (let's say, shana bet), and then want to make aliyah years later, you can appeal the rule and say you were only a bit longer and on a program. But if you basically move to Israel and then try to get your aliyah rights let's say two years later, you will be told that your aliyah rights began 2 years ago, and you have only X-2 years to use your rights.
Hope that makes sense. It's late so it might not be clear, but please ask or PM me if you have any questions.

Good night!

miriamnechama

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 1:14 am

Peanut2 wrote:

I am very familiar with katin chozer and ezrach oleh issues, and you get basically the same rights as any oleh, albeit with greater time restrictions (you can't live in the country for more than a year without your rights starting to run.) HOWEVER, not every shliach is competent and knows this. They might, for example, know that there is a different designation and think that that means different oleh rights.
Also, I'm not familiar with the laws the way they were 11 years ago, so maybe they changed that.

Bottom line, you WILL get aliyah benefits even if you are an ezrach oleh/katin chozer. But the best way to deal with having an israeli parent or a similar issue is to contact the consulate, get a passport, and get all manner of forms BEFORE you want to make aliyah or go to israel for the year. Ignoring this will not make it go away. Israel has computers and you are likely in the system, even if the Israeli parent left as a baby/was born in Israel when it was still Palestine/doesn't speak Hebrew.
Good luck to all!

I tried that also 13 years ago, but the consulate refused to giuve me a passport so I don't know if it can really be done.

even on the computers, it took them a while to track my mother down.. it didn't show straight away. also another thing, it's important you have all your papers, to save you running back and forth or other headaches.

miriamnechama

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 1:50 am

I forgot to add,you can't get a passport without a mispar zehut, as that is usually what the israelius go by and not the passport no. I don't think the consulate are allowed to issue a mispar zehut but I may be wrong.

also I think partly why they wouldnb't give me my passport even though they told me to fill out the forms, was because there wasn't enough time to issue one as I was flying back 2 days later so they told me to just finish the process in israel.

oh and btw for those making aliya, when you get your id number... memorize it, you need it all the time!!

smilingmom

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 7:37 am

I was born in Israel. Came to US when I was seven and lived in Brooklyn since then.
My daughter went to Israel for the first time when she was 20. She wanted to make Aliya with her American DH.
They told her that she was considered a returnee and could not get new Oleh benefits. Her DH got benefits, but not her.

I wish this would have known all this info years ago.

miriamnechama

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 9:23 am

but smiling mom what would it have helped.. you were born there....

I saw clearly throughout the proceedings yad hashem.

I also just happened to once find out through my grandparents that my mom was born there... what does it help 20 years later

I don't think any other country has such a law...

smilingmom

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 6:14 pm

miriamnechama wrote:

You are right. Isreal is the only country that pays you to move there. I think that is remarkable

roze22

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 9:56 pm

smilingmom wrote:

miriamnechama wrote:

You are right. Isreal is the only country that pays you to move there. I think that is remarkable

thank you! it is amazing that israel pays anything to anyone to move there. im not sure what other posters are saying... are you upset because you couldnt get all the benefits? be glad they are even offered at all! my Dh moved to the US and it took us two years, thousands of dollars and a lot of pain to get him here. even once hes here there was no support for new immigrants,

there are many countries that consider you a possible citizen if one of your parents was born there (the us does too!). when you decide to move or get a visa, this is important information to know in any country. even entering or exiting a country on a foreign passport when you are eligible for a local passport can be an issue (in the US it can be considered giving up your rights as a possible us citizen)

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 10:13 pm

roze22 wrote:

thank you! it is amazing that israel pays anything to anyone to move there. im not sure what other posters are saying... are you upset because you couldnt get all the benefits?

I dont know about the others, but I was annoyed that there isnt really one rule, it depends who you talk to. The bureaucracy in my case, where I one office said I couldnt get a visa cause I was Israeli, and the other office said I wasnt a citizen cause my parents didnt register me was annoying. It was also disconcerting the way they looked at the computer and their tone when talking about my mother- they would not tell me why it was an issue, but they made it clear that there was and issue.

raspberry tea

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 10:26 pm

JC wrote:

roze22 wrote:

thank you! it is amazing that israel pays anything to anyone to move there. im not sure what other posters are saying... are you upset because you couldnt get all the benefits?

Even though your parents didn't reister you, you were still a citizen though...right?

The paperwork just needed to be completed?

Tue, Aug 04 2009, 10:38 pm

yuki wrote:

JC wrote:

roze22 wrote:

thank you! it is amazing that israel pays anything to anyone to move there. im not sure what other posters are saying... are you upset because you couldnt get all the benefits?

Even though your parents didn't reister you, you were still a citizen though...right?

The paperwork just needed to be completed?

The problem is that in one room they said that since my dad was a citizen I am a citizen. But in the other room, they said that I couldnt become a citizen because I could not prove that my father, who in the other room made me a citizen, was actually my father. I was in limbo.

Peanut2

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 8:32 am

You would be considered a katin chozer from what you're saying.
BTW none of this matters if you make aliya with a hubby who is a total oleh and kids. Then you become an olim-family and your special status is irrelevant.
(not trying to confuse, just sharing info.)

ora_43

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 8:44 am

Ruchel wrote:

Wait. I made alia and yerida at 4. This means I don't get oulpan and all if I ever make alia? Cool, we better settle in a French or anglo area... Rolling Eyes

Or just pay for ulpan yourself Rolling Eyes

.

I really don't get the fuss here. Yes, it's inconvenient having to deal with extra bureaucracy. It's still easier moving here than immigrating to any other country on earth (at least it is if you're Jewish). Why do people here seem to feel they're owed more than that?

And even a katin chozer gets way more benefits than a new citizen anywhere else... if you're in the right age range then you're still eligible for free university, for instance (including the ulpan courses, if you need them).

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 1:31 pm

Quote:

Or just pay for ulpan yourself Rolling Eyes .

I wouldn't mind in a regular place. If so many people in Germany were condemning all the people of German descent living somewhere else, sending organisations to preach for these people to come back, and very angry when these people stay among each other, I would expect to be paid "oulpan" for German, yes.

You cannot play both parts, the "it's a country like any other" and the "you haaaave to be here AND you haaaaave to know the language and let's dislike the European who stay together".

Quote:

if you're in the right age range then you're still eligible for free university

Thanks. I'm out of 8 years of free university just right here. And I wonder how you can go to university in Hebrew when you don't know it. Good that at least young people will get oulpan.

I'm certain though if they need my husband and later my children in the army they won't hesitate Rolling Eyes

tzatza

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 1:55 pm

Ruchel wrote:

It's very sad, but when you go to Israel, it's better to pretend you can't speak Hebrew. Every time I went with my mom, they gave us a hard time because they wanted to know why she spoke Hebrew. Once she made the mistake of saying she went to a kind of high school/sem in Jerusalem two years as a teen... they went crazy, they made us wait one hour in a room full of Russians and Arabs while searching for records of this, and they kept asking why she left Israel (to study, there wasn't what she wanted in Israel), etc. Sheeesh, keep the politics out of your job, guys!! who are you after, terrorists or chul people??

My dh also told me several times people made faces at him because they asked why he wasn't making alia since he knew Hebrew... and he answered he had no plan of it and they went crazy.

I dread taking the plane for Israel more than any destination. Ok, the questions in America are crazy too. And once they made us ALL take off our shoes to London... but generally it's not that way unless you look for it.

ahem, nothing personal, but what's wrong with that? Smile

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 2:01 pm

Nothing. I felt very bad for anyone in this hot stuffy room, just because they were something the officials didn't like.

In most countries you can get a lot by speaking a few words of the local language. Not there, on contrary!!

Only in Israel...

Ezrachar

Wed, Aug 05 2009, 11:15 pm

Just FYI, my husband is a "toshav chozer" - he left after the army and has been here in the US for 7 years and 1 month, and we are considered a "mishpachat olim" we get benefits for all of us, we get a full sal klita, he gets a free ticket on NBN, we get all oleh rights.

So maybe the people you are talking to are uninformed.

My children are israeli citizens, I am not. We are still a mishpachat olim.

In high school, before seminary, we were told that anyone with an israeli parent needed to have it submitted in writing their intent to stay for ONLY a year... they actually had to get permission to leave israel BEFORE they went for sem. But it was common knowledge that there would be a problem if a parent was an israeli citizen.

BeckyR

Thu, Aug 06 2009, 11:00 am

Just wanted to second what Ezrachar just posted. I am an Israeli citizen and considered a "toshav Chozer", after living in the USA for 7 years. My kids are Israeli citizens with Israeli passports. we are making aliya through my DH ( mishpachat olim) and get all benefits.