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Forum -> Household Management -> Finances
I am massively in debt and DH doesn't know
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 30 2009, 1:00 pm
I want to make a recommendation that really helped my DH and I with our school debts. If you're lucky enough to be able to arrange something like this, it may truly help you with your debt. See if you can follow the logic...

1. Today, banks pay people very little interest to keep their money in the banks. So, if someone had, say, $60,000 sitting in the bank, they would not be making very much money on it at all. That sucks for them.

2. Today, banks and loan agencies charge you a LOT of interest on your loans. So, if you have to borrow, say, $50,000 for school, you're going to pay TONS of money in interest on that. So...as you can see, the banks charge YOU lots of interest when you don't have money, but they do not pay you lots of money when you do have money.

3. My husband and I have a relative who had $70,000 that she wanted to invest. She had it in her bank accoung, but because the banks are paying almost no interest these days (see point #1), she wasn't making any money off of her $70,000. She was making something like 1% interest on her money. It was just sitting there and not growing. On the flip side, my DH and I were paying LOTS of money in interest on our $70,000 in student loans, and we wished we weren't paying such high interest rates. In fact, we were paying around 12% interest, so that's a lot of money!

4. We asked the relative if she would consider doing the following: She would lend us her $70,000 and we would immediately pay off all of our loans from school. Then, rather than pay 12% interest to the banks, we would pay back our loan to her with only 6 or 7% interest. For her, this was fantastic, because instead of having her money sit in the bank and only make 1% interest, she now had a secure investment (she trusted us 100% because we both have very good, reliable jobs) and she's making 6 or 7% interest on her money! It's a win win situation! We're paying less interest on our loan, and she's getting MUCH more interest on her money.

5. There are halachic issues related to charging interest to family members, but we spoke to our LOR and they were easily overcome.

If this is a possibility for you, I highly recommend looking into it. It doesn't wipe away your debt, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier to pay for!
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Fabulous




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 30 2009, 1:06 pm
To amother above, I am so glad it worked out for you but I would be extremely cautious and wary before lendinng/borrowing money to/from a family member or friend. Money has a way of interfering majorly. What if ch'v one of you lost the job, but that relative was relying on the money coming in (interest even) as a source of income. Let's say you would be a few months behind. The sources of conflict are many.

I would definitly consult a rav not just on the halachic aspects but on if he thinks people in their individual situations should do it.
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Mirabelle




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 30 2009, 1:40 pm
I am not sure why you were paying such high interest rates on your student loans.

DH and I are each paying around 2%.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 30 2009, 2:22 pm
I disagree with the logic.

When interest rates are high, they are high all around. For the investors AND the borrowers. Consequently, when they are low, like now, they are low for investors (banks aren't paying a lot of interest) as well as for borrowers (banks aren't charging a lot of interest).

And this is just me personally, but I'd rather be dealing with a high interest bank loan than a low interest loan to/from a family member.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 31 2009, 2:45 am
Shortly after I married DH he disclosed that he had a large amount of debt. Before marriage we had discussed finances and this did not come up. We married at an older age, and I had worked many years. As I didn't make a lot of money, I had penny-pinched to stay out of debt.

Yes, I was upset and angry when he told me, but not for one minute did I consider leaving him - and we were newlyweds, when the emotional bond is not as strong as it is after several years of marriage. I got over it. I knew he was a good guy and I wasn't going to divorce him because he made a mistake or two.

Get it out in the open, apologize for not telling him sooner, tell him you have a payback plan. It's not the end of the world or the marriage if he is angry - he'll get over it.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 09 2009, 11:12 pm
OP here.

First, thanks for the calm and supportive comments.

Second, I just found this post being discussed on Orthonomics. Which feels ... like a violation. Does this happen a lot? I thought of this as a reasonably safe haven. It feels less so when I see myself discussed and insulted, albeit anonymously, on a public blog.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 09 2009, 11:22 pm
amother wrote:
OP here.

First, thanks for the calm and supportive comments.

Second, I just found this post being discussed on Orthonomics. Which feels ... like a violation. Does this happen a lot? I thought of this as a reasonably safe haven. It feels less so when I see myself discussed and insulted, albeit anonymously, on a public blog.


I agree that it would run through me like cold ice.... but you are anonymous here and there, and you are not the only person in a situation like this.
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Strudel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 09 2009, 11:32 pm
This is why Imamother needs to be a members only site.
One comment, by Miami Al called all us Imamothers "crooked enablers". Nice guy, huh?
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 12:56 am
amother wrote:
OP here.

First, thanks for the calm and supportive comments.

Second, I just found this post being discussed on Orthonomics. Which feels ... like a violation. Does this happen a lot? I thought of this as a reasonably safe haven. It feels less so when I see myself discussed and insulted, albeit anonymously, on a public blog.


And this isn't a public forum too?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 1:11 am
what is orthonomics?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 3:13 am
Strudel wrote:
This is why Imamother needs to be a members only site.
One comment, by Miami Al called all us Imamothers "crooked enablers". Nice guy, huh?

The problem isn't that this section is public. It's that some members of this site see no problem with taking whatever people posted here and bashing it on their own blogs. It's happened in private forums as well.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 3:24 am
Since when is having a difference of opinion 'bashing'?

Often I'll read a thread here and think the situation/opinion/emotion/reaction is silly, stupid or moronic. Will I post as much here? No.

But if you post opinions/situations/emotions/reactions in a public forum it becomes public fodder.

And I don't think stating my own opinion to a thread, even if it is negative, is bashing. If I don't agree, I'll state why.

And if I feel like stating in a blog what I REALLY think, I'll do so. If 'you' don't like it, don't put it out in public.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 4:39 am
YESHASettler wrote:
Since when is having a difference of opinion 'bashing'?

If it's stated respectfully, it's not bashing. If it's stated basically as "OMG people on imamother are so stupid, just look at this..." then it is bashing.

I'm not accusing any one blog in particular. There are several people who take imamother threads/ posts to their own blogs - some are nasty, some are respectful but have nasty people commenting, and some are respectful and just use ideas from here to start discussion. I'm not trying to put orthonomics into one of those categories - but definitely there are imamothers who fall into all three.

Quote:
Often I'll read a thread here and think the situation/opinion/emotion/reaction is silly, stupid or moronic. Will I post as much here? No.

If you don't want to post here, that's your choice. That doesn't make it OK to go call someone silly, stupid or moronic elsewhere, "behind their back" as it were. At least if you post here, there might be some toelet to it - if you post elsewhere, what's the point?

Quote:
But if you post opinions/situations/emotions/reactions in a public forum it becomes public fodder.

...

And if I feel like stating in a blog what I REALLY think, I'll do so. If 'you' don't like it, don't put it out in public.

There are rules about what we can and can't say about other people, and under what circumstances. Even on the Internet. The fact that a person said something in public doesn't always mean that you can take that statement and do with it whatever you want, why would you be able to do the same just because the interaction has been computerized? (for example, if you say in public "I think X" and I turn to someone sitting next to me and say "can you believe how stupid Yeshasettler is? I can't believe anyone still thinks X. What a classic example of a person who never learned to think for herself" - that is lashon hara, and ona'at dvarim, even though your statement was made in public).

Even online where people are anonymous - it's still a real person with feelings (most of the time, anyway), and issues like ona'at dvarim do still apply (although when and how lashon hara, etc, applies online is I assume complex).
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 5:59 am
Except for the most part (the ones I've read at least) it's not "I can't believe So-and-so is so stupid", but "So-and-so said XYZ and I think that's one of the stupidest things I've heard", meaning it's not that the person saying whatever is stupid, but the conclusion they've come to is... sort of like loving the sinner but hating the sin.

I read the post on Orthonomics and the comments and only ONE person made it about the person and not the behavior (and from further comments he does this on a regular basis).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 7:29 am
I am not talking specifically about orthonomics. To make it clear - I do not think orthonomics is so bad in this regard. The blog takes only from open forums, and only relevant topics, and the blogger herself sticks to discussing whatever aspect of the situation is relevant to home finance.

My point (at least when I first responded to Strudel) was that simply making all of imamother private wouldn't fix the situation, as there are already other blogs, NOT orthonomics, that take posts made on private threads for discussion elsewhere. And sometimes for open bashing + not just discussion. So instead of worrying about how to keep orthonomics from taking material from open threads, we should just accept that there are people online who do that, and there's not really much to be done about it. Anyone who's bothered should contact the relevant blogger themselves, IMO, instead of trying to hide this board.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 7:35 am
yesha no matter, it's a violating feeling to have your business discussed BEHIND your back versus where you chose to have it discussed and I understand the OP for feeling upset.

This may be a public forum too but it's still not nice to pinch a personal topic from here and go discuss it without the original person asking for advice involved or invited on a different site.

It's like Chana was asking Rivka, Malky, and Devora for advice on problems she was having with her husband. Rivka leaves the topic and goes off to discuss Chana's problems with Sarah and Leah and the three of them have a nice chat about it with not toeles whatsoever.
not nice!
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 8:17 am
amother wrote:
It's like Chana was asking Rivka, Malky, and Devora for advice on problems she was having with her husband. Rivka leaves the topic and goes off to discuss Chana's problems with Sarah and Leah and the three of them have a nice chat about it with not toeles whatsoever.
not nice!

But there's a halachic/moral difference here due to the nature of the "conversation." I'm pretty sure that in the case you describe, it's definitely assur to talk about a person behind their back like that. But in this case there are two major differences:

1. the original conversation is public + recorded. So it's not like Rivka saying "Chana said X and her husband said Y," etc, filling in the friends on things Chana didn't want to share... instead it's like if Chana held the conversation within earshot of Sarah and Leah, and Rivka just said "hey guys listen to what Chana is saying."

2. The secondary conversation is also public and recorded, so while there's a feeling that it's taking place "behind the back" so to speak, in reality there's nothing stopping Chana from taking part in the second conversation as well (and in most cases I've seen where posts from one site are discussed elsewhere, the original poster does eventually find out and is able to "listen to" the second conversation).

There are still halachic issues, questions, etc, but different ones. But I'm not sure they should be discussed here, because once we start talking about a specific blogger "behind her back" over here, we're part of the problem. A theoretical discussion about the laws of speech + general interpersonal laws as they apply online could be interesting -- but I don't know enough to start that thread.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 10:10 am
amother wrote:
chocolate moose wrote:
It isn't just the 50K. there's gonna be interest too.


Which is negligible for student loans.


It's not. I've been there, you know.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 2:59 pm
amother wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
why are you going to school if youre plannin to be a sahm?


That's not a fair question. We can learn for the sake of learning. We can go to school and add letters after our name because we want certain knowledge and won't feel completely satisfied without it. And just because we're going to be spending our days taking care of our children at home, doesn't mean we needn't be educated. There are lots of dumb mommies out there....I didn't want to be one, so like the OP, I went to school. (And no, I'm not saying that anyone who is uneducated is dumb).

What if her husband is super well-educated? Shouldn't she want to be intelligent so that she can keep up with him intellectually? Or *GASP*...what if she wants to be even more intellectual than her husband??


Of course it's a fair question.

Like Defy Gravity said, if you want to learn for the sake of learning, go to the library.

Of course you can go to school and add letters to your name and choose to feel unsatisfied without those letters, but if it costs $50,000 that you don't have, and that your husband HAD NO CHOICE IN, then it's kind of immature to say, "Well, I wanted the letters! I wanted the piece of paper."

There are many very educated moms out there who haven't gone to college. College isn't about education as much as it is about other things (societal expectations, being able to get job X, providing a source of income for the university, etc.)

If someone wants to go to school so she can wave a paper around, or be on level with her husband (though school doesn't really do that--you can get that at the library or free or nominally priced lectures in the community), or beyond her husband....I'm sorry, but she would be better off spending that money on therapy to figure out what her problem is.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 10 2009, 3:55 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
amother wrote:
Mama Bear wrote:
why are you going to school if youre plannin to be a sahm?


That's not a fair question. We can learn for the sake of learning. We can go to school and add letters after our name because we want certain knowledge and won't feel completely satisfied without it. And just because we're going to be spending our days taking care of our children at home, doesn't mean we needn't be educated. There are lots of dumb mommies out there....I didn't want to be one, so like the OP, I went to school. (And no, I'm not saying that anyone who is uneducated is dumb).

What if her husband is super well-educated? Shouldn't she want to be intelligent so that she can keep up with him intellectually? Or *GASP*...what if she wants to be even more intellectual than her husband??


Of course it's a fair question.

Like Defy Gravity said, if you want to learn for the sake of learning, go to the library.

Of course you can go to school and add letters to your name and choose to feel unsatisfied without those letters, but if it costs $50,000 that you don't have, and that your husband HAD NO CHOICE IN, then it's kind of immature to say, "Well, I wanted the letters! I wanted the piece of paper."

There are many very educated moms out there who haven't gone to college. College isn't about education as much as it is about other things (societal expectations, being able to get job X, providing a source of income for the university, etc.)

If someone wants to go to school so she can wave a paper around, or be on level with her husband (though school doesn't really do that--you can get that at the library or free or nominally priced lectures in the community), or beyond her husband....I'm sorry, but she would be better off spending that money on therapy to figure out what her problem is.

It would be a fair question if OP had started school after deciding to be a SAHM.

However, given the situation OP describes, it really isn't a fair question - not because we can "learn for the sake of learning" but because she went to school while still single, and it sounds like she's only been in school since in order to push off paying the debt... IOW, she didn't decide to pursue a degree while simultaneously planning to be a SAHM.
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