Changing minhagim | Imamother

imamama

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 6:13 am

A friend of mine and her husband have recently "switched" to Teimani minhagim. They are both from Ashkenazi families, but according to their rav, because her husband's father didn't stick to his father's minhagim, his mesorah has been interrupted, so he's basically allowed to choose whatever minhagim he'd like. I'm not questioning the validity of this psak. If that's what their rav said, that's what they're doing.

But this really got me thinking about minhagim. How can one sect of Judaism hold in a way that another sect would find completely assur? I mean, we're all Jews. And why is it determined by where our ancestors come from? I mean, we all agree that each group's minhagim are legitimate ways to practice Judaism. But why aren't the legitimate for everyone?

Like, this statement just seems so outlandish to me: I am not allowed to eat humus on Pesach because my great-grandfather was born in Poland. My neighbor can eat humus on Pesach, because her great-grandfather was born in Morocco. Scratching Head

I know. I'm probably gonna get seriously bashed. But I'm really not trying to challenge anything, I'm genuinely curious how one Jew can have a minhag to do something that to another Jew is assur, or at least requires a heter. (And I'm not just talking about kitniot. I'm using it as an example.)

catonmylap

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:04 am

It's actually not where your great-grandfather was born, but where your dh's was.

My dh did a similar thing. He switched when we got married to Dutch Yekke minhagim, which is where his ancestors are from, from standard Ashkenazi ones. The minhagim has also been lost due to not everyone staying frum, and then picking up Rebbim's minhagim, rather than the family ones.

Quote:

How can one sect of Judaism hold in a way that another sect would find completely assur

I think the point is that those things aren't completely assur. Even those who adhere to the strictest halacha on kitniot, recognize that it is not on the same level as chometz, and does not have the same din. It's not "completely" assur.

Can you think of an example of something where it's "completely assur"?

My bigger issue with the whole minhag thing, is why can't we change ALL of our minhagim based on where are living now and the customs around us. I would love to see a UNIFIED minhag Eretz Yisroel that those of us who live in E"Y could follow.

ChossidMom

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:27 am

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

How can one sect of Judaism hold in a way that another sect would find completely assur

Sometimes I think that way and then I remember how beautiful it is that every family preserves its precious traditions from wherever they're from. I actually think it would be great if everyone could preserve their own minhagim yet respect everyone else's.

smilingmom

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 7:35 am

imamama wrote:

but according to their rav,

That is the key, they asked a Rav and got an answer. I am sure if he would have decided otherwise they would have followed him to.
My DH's father's family decided arbitrarily to switch from 6 to 3 hours. My DH asked a Rav and was told to go back to six, his cousin asked and was told he can keep three.
That is the beauty of Judaism. We have Emunas Chachamim and ask questions of Gedolim. Every single Gadol has the utmost respect and Ahava for other Gedolim, even if their practice and customs are as different as night and day. We should accord the same respect and love towards all Jews, and not be concerned with the details of their observance.

Seraph

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:45 am

smilingmom wrote:

imamama wrote:

but according to their rav,

So, I know the family imamama is talking about, and they switched from ashkenazi minhagim to teimani minhagim. The rav they asked is a teimani, so said "Yea, you can switch to teimani minhagim."
I'm sure that if you asked a sfardi rav if you could switch to sfardi, they'd say yes, if you asked a chassidish rav if you can take on chassidish minhagim he'd say you can, if you asked a litvish rav he'd say you can... etc. So why do we ONLY have to ask rabbanim of "our type"? Why can't we find a rav of a different type and switch to that type?

chocolate moose

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:50 am

imamama wrote:

But this really got me thinking about minhagim. How can one sect of Judaism hold in a way that another sect would find completely assur? I mean, we're all Jews. And why is it determined by where our ancestors come from? I mean, we all agree that each group's minhagim are legitimate ways to practice Judaism. But why aren't the legitimate for everyone?

Like, this statement just seems so outlandish to me: I am not allowed to eat humus on Pesach because my great-grandfather was born in Poland. My neighbor can eat humus on Pesach, because her great-grandfather was born in Morocco. Scratching Head

You wanna talk about why some women shave their heads ? You haven't had enough yet ?

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 8:51 am

The rabbanim I follow I heard on the topic of minhagim say that you cannot change your minhag.

Actually I only know one "brand" of shitta who says "yes, feel free to take on my minhagim" (and some will even push for it/say your minhag isn't correct.

The others say "ask your father/grandfather what his family did and follow that". If they don't know, ask a rav from the same origin. If there isn't one, ask a scholar, find books, find any info you can. And if really mamash the minhag is defunct AND nothing is foundable about it (very rare nowadays BH!) then take the closest minhag that you can find about.

imamama

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 11:47 am

catonmylap wrote:

It's actually not where your great-grandfather was born, but where your dh's was.

Yeah, I know that. Although, my DH's biological father is not Jewish, and his stepfather is BT, so for some minhagim, we do what my family does (upsherin, for example) cuz he just doesn't have a minhag.

Exactly what Seraph said. If they had asked an Ashkenazi rav, I doubt they would have gotten the same answer. Basically, her husband did some research and came to the conclusion that Teimanim have the closest thing to the "original" Judaism, for lack of a better word. They decided they wanted to be Teimanim, so they asked a Teimani rav if they could switch from what they've been doing.

Personally, I'm all for getting as close to the "original" Judaism as possible. As beautiful and meaningful as some minhagim are, they are, essentially, products of Bnei Yisrael being exiled from their land. I think a minhag EY would be a wonderful thing. I've been eying the whole "Machon Shiloh Nusach Eretz Yisrael" thing for quite some time. Neither me or my husband is learned enough to decide this on our own, and I'm pretty sure any rav we asked (aside from R' David Bar-Hayim) would tell us no way. But does it work that way? Can you scope out the various groups, and then ask that group's rav if you can follow their minhagim?

catonmylap wrote:

Can you think of an example of something where it's "completely assur"?

So one of my friends told me that she is allowed to put things that contain liquid on the plata on Shabbos. Like, anything. Even soup. Because that's how her husband holds. I'm not very learned, and I am really very clueless about other people's minhagim. I'm even pretty clueless about my own minhagim, but whatever, that's really a whole different discussion. But as far as I know and learned, putting a pan of meatballs with sauce on the plata Shabbos morning for lunch is a big fat no-no. (If this is a misconception on my part, PLEASE let me know!!)

I've also heard some people hold you can go into the mikvah with fake nails, and I'm sure there are plenty of rabbanim that hold that that's assur. (I think. I don't know. Maybe I made this one up...)

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm beginning to understand why this topic bothers me so much. For someone with a strong mesorah and a strong yichus, minhagim can be very beautiful, something that connects them to the Jews of past generations. But my husband does not have that. My family has a little more. My father's father's family were some kind of chassidish (Ger, maybe??) but my grandfather didn't really stick to the minhagim, which means that my father stuck to even less. It's basically getting a good answer for, "Why do we do this?"

ChossidMom

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:57 pm

Yes. As far as I know, Rav Ovadia Yosef holds that you can heat up dry things directly on the plata. When it comes to wet things, if the wet part is the "ikar" like with soup - you may not heat it up but if it's the "tafel" like with meatball sauce - you may heat it up. I'm not sure about all the details but I know that the sefardim hold very differently from the ashkenazim in this area.

And, btw, I don't think that changing your minhag is looked upon as a good thing in ANY circle. I always learned from my rav that one should daven the way his father davened and should NOT change his nusach, for example. Also, I have always learned that minhagim should be kept even if the reason for the minhag no longer exists (like in the case of chassidim not eating garlic on Pesach).

Seraph

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 1:08 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

Ashkenazim hold different from sfardim who hold different from teimanim.
Ashkenazim hold no liquid heated up, sfardim hold as long as the liquid isnt the ikkar, and teimanim hold that liquids heating up is fine.

Inspired

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 1:42 pm

Quote:

Afaik at least some sefardim hold as long as something liquid was cooked before it can go on a blech/ plata even from the fridge. And yes, for ashkenazim it would be assur to do that.

Inspired

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 1:46 pm

imamama wrote:

Seraph wrote:

But why is what I'm allowed to put on the plata on Shabbos determined by where my great-grandfather was from????

how else do you expect halacha and minhag to follow through from fire pits and communal ovens in the courtyard to electric ranges and ovens with digital read outs?