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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
shalhevet
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 Sun, Jun 04 2006, 12:11 pm
| ytwh1 wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | I would become a citizen, though I don't know what that has to do with anything practically. |
I am sooooo confused. so what exactly were you arguing about that the state should not exist?
you would become a citizen of the state, you would live here. I really do not get it. |
ytwh1, we've been through all of this already. (See page 4)
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shabbatiscoming
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 12:40 pm
| mummyof6 wrote: | | ytwh1 wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | I would become a citizen, though I don't know what that has to do with anything practically. |
I am sooooo confused. so what exactly were you arguing about that the state should not exist?
you would become a citizen of the state, you would live here. I really do not get it. |
ytwh1, we've been through all of this already. (See page 4) |
no, I understand what you said why you live in Israel. I get that. but crayon has, throughout the whole posting, been saying only negative things about ppl that make their home in Israel and that every Rav that she holds by says not to live in Israel, so I am VERY confused by that.
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shalhevet
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 12:51 pm
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And I still haven't had an answer from Crayon as to which Gedolim, apart from the Satmar Rebbe, hold/held that going to live in EY today is assur and that the 3 oaths are halacha today.
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Crayon210
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:35 pm
| ytwh1 wrote: | | no, I understand what you said why you live in Israel. I get that. but crayon has, throughout the whole posting, been saying only negative things about ppl that make their home in Israel and that every Rav that she holds by says not to live in Israel, so I am VERY confused by that. |
I have not said negative things about people who make their homes in Eretz Yisroel.
I have not said that any Rav said not to live in Eretz Yisroel.
I'm confused as to where you have gotten those ideas from.
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Crayon210
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:36 pm
| mummyof6 wrote: | | And I still haven't had an answer from Crayon as to which Gedolim, apart from the Satmar Rebbe, hold/held that going to live in EY today is assur and that the 3 oaths are halacha today. |
The Satmar Rav never held that it was assur to live in Eretz Yisroel.
As far as I know, no gadol ever held that it was assur.
The three oaths are not about living in Eretz Yisroel; they're about taking Eretz Yisroel by force.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:38 pm
| Quote: | | And I still haven't had an answer from Crayon as to which Gedolim, apart from the Satmar Rebbe, hold/held that going to live in EY today is assur |
I'll say it again.......Satmar has a big Kehilla in Eretz Yisroel and obviously he didn't assur living there!!
Crayon, from my understanding, did not post anything about the people that make Eretz Yisroel their home. All she did was say that the State-founded in 1948 is assur-according to many gedolim. That's what I got from her words, nothing negative about living there.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:39 pm
Sniped by Crayon 
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Crayon210
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Sun, Jun 04 2006, 3:45 pm
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Thank you, amother. At least someone's reading. :-)
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 4:33 am
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then crayon, I am very confused (sorry:<) but if you are not against ppl living in Israel and visiting Israel etc, then what were all of the negative things that you said before?
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Crayon210
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 7:38 am
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Against the state/government.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 7:43 am
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got it:) glad I understand you now........
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Crayon210
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 7:52 am
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Good-kol hakavod to you for living in Eretz Yisroel. :-D
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 8:01 am
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Good-kol hakavod to you for living in Eretz Yisroel. :-D |
thanks you!
but it needs no praise! my reason for moving here was that I just feel more jewish here so I moved here, thats all!
(not written in any attempt to start an argument, just to tell why I live here:>)
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DefyGravity
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 8:37 am
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For me it would be pointless moving to a different country where I don't have friends and family (and don't even speak the language). Especially since I'm happy with my life here and see no reason to move anywhere at this time.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 9:21 am
| DefyGravity wrote: | | For me it would be pointless moving to a different country where I don't have friends and family (and don't even speak the language). Especially since I'm happy with my life here and see no reason to move anywhere at this time. |
I understand what you are saying....
that is what I was saying above. I was in Israel a few times before I made aliyah and I felt something in Israel that I just didnt feel where I grew up. not every person and not every jew feels that. I was just saying what I felt and why I came.
it was sort of like a love affair. I loved Israel sooo much that it did not matter that I would have to make friends (BH I did and I got married too:>) and that I would speak to my family every week or more or through email. imagine you fall in love with someone long distance and then you go and move to that place to be with them. thats what I felt and it still is that way three years latter. I still feel that love afair feeling (not at strong but still there:>)
I was jststating my opinion, thats all!
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DefyGravity
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 9:28 am
I wasn't responding to your post, just to the initial question of the post. It took me awhile to post a response.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 9:29 am
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My father moved to Israel some years after the war, he wanted to "go home", be with his "brothers".... Soon he saw he wasn't home at all, and his "brothers" were just as any other country - even worse on some things. He ran back to France where he still is.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 9:41 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | My father moved to Israel some years after the war, he wanted to "go home", be with his "brothers".... Soon he saw he wasn't home at all, and his "brothers" were just as any other country - even worse on some things. He ran back to France where he still is. |
that was then, 58 years ago. things are much different now in Israel. one can not compare how things were in Israel after 1948 and now.
my grandmother also came here after the shoah. she them moved to the USA (things were VERY hard then). she now talks about moving back to Israel to live, she is in her 80s because she talks of how things are so much better in this country now than they were years ago.
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amother
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 10:58 am
I just was going through my old school papers and I found some pages from a paper that I once wrote about Chabad and Zionism. I don't have time to retype the whole thing, and I seem to have lost the first page, but here is just one anecdote:
Rabbi Shalom Posner was a Shliach in Pitttsburgh, a city with a very strong Mizrachi movement. In 1947 and '48, there was a lot of talk about founding the state of Israel, and the course of a conversation with the LUbavitcher Rebbe (before he became the Rebbe,) Rabbi Posner asked him what stand he should take on this hot issue. The Rebbe told him: "This whole question has nothing to do with the Shalosh Shavuous. There is a country in the world where they're killing Jews ("m'harget yidden.") If there would be a Jewish government, Jews will not be killed. So of course make a Jewish government! Save Jewish lives."
(OK I'll copy the next paragraph too...)
In Chabad thinking the Jewish State is only valuable because it protects Jewish lives; the Rebbe was particularly passionate when he insisted numerous times that the foudning of the State of Israel has nothing to do with the idea of "Ischalta D'geula." Accepting the creation of the State as Ischalta D'geula is a form of "selling out cheap," and diminishing the belief in the real, ultimate Redemption....
OK I gotta go now! Sorry no time to fix typos. I hope that sheds some light on the issue (whatever it is, I can't quite tell.)
If I can find this paper in one of my old discs, I'll add more stories and information iyh bli neder etc..
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amother
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Mon, Jun 05 2006, 11:02 am
Found another short paragraph then I really gotta go:
If Chabad considers itself "anti-Zionism," it is because the Zionists of the past were often one and the same with the proponents of the "Enlightenment," people who tried to weaken Torah Judaism by forcing Jewish children to attend government-run, anti-religious schools. The bitter conflict the Chabad Rebbeim had with the "Enlightenment" people extended into a conflict with Zionists: same people, different name.
Anonymous because lots of people can identify me by this paper - if anyone really needs to know who I am ask and I will pm you if I get security clearance. 8)
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