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Selective giving
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 9:44 am
In this week's Jewish Press, Cheryl Kupfer wrote an article called "If My Son Is Treif, So Is His Money". It is about a mother who tore up appeals from her local kollel because her son, a working boy, could not get dates with girls from learning families. He was expected to support them but not marry them.
While the Torah speaks of the symbiosis of Yissachar and Zevulan, in today's frum society, it is looked down upon to leave yeshiva and go to work.
I can identify with this mother and sometimes like to give to "feel good" causes. I feel good giving to the hungry and working poor and don't enjoy giving to those who feel superior and entitled. Any thoughts on the matter?
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 10:03 am
it depends if youre "chesed sheb'chesed," or "chesed sheb'gvurah" Wink
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 11:04 am
I'm with you, southernbubby!
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 11:28 am
Particularly in today's day and age it's very important for all boys to remain in the learning "sevivah" of the yeshiva, even if they are not especially great learners. Since I'm a Lubavitcher, I can only quote what I know is the Rebbe's view on this subject, which is that a bochur belongs in Yeshiva till marriage.

There is a time and place for everything, and of course Zevulun as the supporter of Torah is an equal partner, but the time for being Zevulun is, when it is appropriate to go out into the "world",after finishing one's studies for semicha and getting married.

While the working boy is certainly entitled to a respectable shidduch, it doesn't seem fair to imply wrong on the part of learning families that don't want this type of a boy. After all, he is not a learning boy!

What is not respectable about seeing a girl from a "working" family, with fine midos etc. from his own perspective and background? Why is he insisting on the girl from the "learning" family? Isn't he contradicting himself?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 12:21 pm
According to the article, he had started dating a girl from a learning family. They went out 3 times and things were going well. Then her family decided that he would not fit in and married her off to a kollel boy. Now he is being invited to spend his money to support her and her new husband.
While everyone feels entitled to persue the type of shidduch that they want, doesn't everyone have the same right to give to causes that mean something to them?
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 03 2006, 1:32 pm
southernbubby wrote:
, doesn't everyone have the same right to give to causes that mean something to them?


To be sure. While you are supposed to give something to a Yid who asks you in person, you are under no obligation to give to someone who writes you a letter. I don't believe it's even possible to give to every single one, so you have to choose which ones you prefer. I personally give preference to local orgs; orgs that have directly or indirectly benefitted my family or people I know; orgs that have minimal overhead so that all or most of the money goes directly to whatever it is that they do; orgs that provide food for the hungry or emergency medical care (I figure I will look out for people's physical well-being first and worry about their souls later); smaller and less-known orgs that have a harder time getting money from big philanthropists; and other criteria. And, yes, southernbubby, there are some orgs I will not support b/c I disagree with their policy. It's my tzedaka money and I am entitled to give it where I please.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 04 2006, 2:59 pm
southernbubby - Sounds absurd to me. As sarayehudis points out, why on earth does a working boy expect girls from learning families to date him? And to say that her family "married her off to a kollel boy" implies that she had no say in the matter. Do you believe that?

Of course the mother can give her tzedaka to any worthy cause but her reason for not supporting her local kollel sounds like the reason of a hysterical female Rolling Eyes Would she prefer that the kollel close?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 04 2006, 3:13 pm
From the article it sounded that they convinced their daughter to drop him and marry a learning boy. They said that the working boy was not from the
right "shnit" (cloth). I don't know why they agreed to her dating him to begin with if this was the way that they would feel.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 04 2006, 4:21 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I don't know why they agreed to her dating him to begin with if this was the way that they would feel.


I doubt we know the true story.
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amother


 

Post Thu, May 04 2006, 5:10 pm
[/quote]the time for being Zevulun is, when it is appropriate to go out into the "world",after finishing one's studies for semicha and getting married. [quote]

How can one only start going about getting training and starting the bottom of the corporate ladder, once they are already married and have a wife and family to support?
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seniormom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 05 2006, 10:52 am
Chen, you put it so well Thumbs Up

Southernbubby, I too give selectively,and I suspect most ppl do even if they don't discuss it publicly. My budget is limited, but even if it weren't I think I would want to give to those causes dearest to my heart or those where I feel my contribution will make a real difference. I read that article, and I certainly related to it. I don't think I'd be in a hurry to donate to a yeshiva that looked down on my child. In fact, I haven't! Wink
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 05 2006, 1:03 pm
Someone called me on the phone today and guess what she mentioned--that article. Her husband is a cheder rebbe and she agreed to the sentiments expressed in the article. On the surface, it seems that we should be content to marry within our own sphere and give to the kollelim because in their merit, the world continues to exist. By the same token though, what about the poor of our own spheres? And what about the attitude that those who support Torah learning, by their working to provide contributions, are inferior to those whom they support? While no one actually says that they are inferior, there is an implication that being the wife of a supporter is lower than being the wife of the supported. Inorder that Yissachar and Zevulan can co-exist, we have to take away that stigma. Otherwise it would be as Motek said, the kollelim would have to close.
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seniormom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, May 06 2006, 11:35 pm
Apparently there was also a similar article in Yated a week or two ago, because this week I noticed some letters of response from readers. The article (or letter) in question was referring to the negative feedback received by a man with children who had spent many years in kollel but decided it was time for him to go out and earn a living to support his family. He was roundly criticized for his decision. The letters of response ran the gamut ...but the one that caught my eye discussed the moral judgments that the kollel/yeshivishe community imposes on ppl. The writer made a very interesting point that the tendency to pass judgment in that way stems from a basic insecurity that these ppl have. It got me thinking, because I live in a community where even the Rabbonim have fallen prey to the possibility of being judged as too lenient...they pasken in the most chumradik way almost as a reflex action...everyone wants to be more rightwing than the next.

It is of course important to strive to be more learned and more careful with halachos, etc., but it almost seems as if the kollel crowd is implying it can't be done in any way but theirs. More and more truly frum and generous ppl are becoming resentful about this condescending attitude.

And, since this is the "controversial" section...I'd like to know...why are such frum ppl so arrogant in the "superiority"? Do they not learn about anivus in kollel? Confused
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MMEC123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 10:40 am
I don't think it's so simple. I think it's very important for every person to take his own needs and situation into account.

If a boy cannot learn and is frustrated and he is being turned off because he is being forced into a mold, let him go out a work or learn a trade (at least for part of the day). Same with girls- not every girl has the dedication and desire to work herself sick to support a husband in kollel. Bad or good, some girls feel they "need" more (materialistically) and want someone who can take care of that. I'm not saying these are good or ideal situations but it is completely wrong to put everyone into the same mold and expect it to work.

I can only speak for myself (not lubavitch, btw)- I come from no money, as does DH. When we got married, I moved to his city without a job yet. There was no way we could've lasted more than a month, maybe two with just our basic bills, had DH not been working. And for the record, DH is a very good, serious learner but did not want to be sucked into the "marry a girl for her money" phenomenon that is so prevelant.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 11:04 am
southernbubby wrote:
And what about the attitude that those who support Torah learning, by their working to provide contributions, are inferior to those whom they support? While no one actually says that they are inferior, there is an implication that being the wife of a supporter is lower than being the wife of the supported. Inorder that Yissachar and Zevulan can co-exist, we have to take away that stigma.


What exactly are you suggesting, that we give the same respect for a talmid chacham as we do for a working man? Do you think the halacha is that we should stand up for both? Who do you think should sit on the dais at a dinner in support of a mosad Torah - rabbis and working people who support the mosad? What is your understanding of the concept of "kavod ha'Torah"?
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seniormom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 11:53 am
Motek, I'm sure you're waiting for Southernbubby to let you know what she was thinking, but if I may add my 2 cents...there are many different ways to show respect to ppl.

For a talmid chacham, we stand up (also, btw, for a person over 70 yrs.--even if he is not learned!) We also should stand for our parent, even if not learned. Yet, although no one would suggest that a parent stand for a child, it is equally important to show appropriate respect for a child and his/her dignity.

Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva are usually honored by sitting on a dais at formal dinners, and the "working ppl" are usually honored with awards at such dinners. There are ways of honoring both--but each one differently.

Having said this, I think the main point here is not "kavod haTorah" but "kavod habriyos". It's important that no frum person look down on another because he/she chooses a different way of avodas Hashem...and, yes, "working" and helping to support a mosad/pay tuition/give tzedaka is a valid way of doing one's avodah. (Let all the kollel ppl remember...im ein kemach ein Torah!)

There is a right-wing yeshiva in the NY tri-state area that moved several years ago to a donated building in a modern Orthodox community. The community was very supportive and involved with the boys. One time the Rosh Yeshiva overheard some boys talking that they were invited to the house of one of the big donors, and they were concerned about eating whatever food might be served there. The Rosh Yeshiva promptly gave the boys a mussar shmooze, telling them that if this donor's money is kosher enough for the yeshiva to take then their food is kosher enough for the boys to eat. What a beautiful lesson this Rosh Yeshiva gave his boys in kavod habriyos.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 12:01 pm
While we only stand in respect of the Talmud chocham, we do honor donors at dinners. If not for those donors, how could the institutions exist? Do those who choose to support learning not deserve respect? I was told that there was a halacha to respect the wealthy man because it is very easy for him to turn his heart towards another cause. As we have established, there is no halacha demanding how much of a person's tzedukah goes toward the learning person. It can go to the bikur chollim, matan besayser, and numerous other causes. While the average working man is not wealthy, he still has the ability to make a difference with his tzedukah, while at the same time not depending on the community or his wife and in-laws to support him. Do we want to turn him off to supporting the learning people?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 12:45 pm
seniormom wrote:
The Rosh Yeshiva promptly gave the boys a mussar shmooze, telling them that if this donor's money is kosher enough for the yeshiva to take then their food is kosher enough for the boys to eat.


Do you understand his comment? I don't.

Countless Jews have supported yeshivos and other fine institutions and you would not be able to eat their food. His statement is illogical because of course the man's support demonstrates zilch about his kashrus observance and how lenient or strict he is.

I think the rosh yeshiva was concerned that the man not be insulted and stop donating money! Quite practical!

Quote:
It can go to the bikur chollim, matan besayser, and numerous other causes


One of his obligations is to support Torah.

Turn him off? Oh please.

I think this is an American attitude - we're all equal. He gets his kavod this way, and he gets his kavod that way. Smells to high heaven. We are enjoined to flee from kavod, not seek it out. Sounds like a lot of working people have the modern illness of low self-esteem. If they believed in what they were doing and knew their place and truly respected Torah, we wouldn't hear them complaining about their status.

Let's hear those of you who are so protective of the honor of working people come to the defense of the learning people who are treated as parasites, who are thought of as "bench-sitters," who are considered good-for-nothings who can't do anything else so they may as well get govt. aid and sit in yeshiva.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 12:51 pm
seniormom wrote:
There is a right-wing yeshiva in the NY tri-state area that moved several years ago to a donated building in a modern Orthodox community. The community was very supportive and involved with the boys. One time the Rosh Yeshiva overheard some boys talking that they were invited to the house of one of the big donors, and they were concerned about eating whatever food might be served there. The Rosh Yeshiva promptly gave the boys a mussar shmooze, telling them that if this donor's money is kosher enough for the yeshiva to take then their food is kosher enough for the boys to eat. What a beautiful lesson this Rosh Yeshiva gave his boys in kavod habriyos.


What?!

shock shock shock
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 07 2006, 12:54 pm
If you read what I wrote Motek, I said that there was no specific percentage of the working man's tzedukah that had to go to support learning, not that he had no obligation. Do you give to causes that "turn you off"? While it is wrong to consider the learning Jew to be a parasite, how many of them can be supported if very few people are working? Under normal circumstances, we are not obligated to give more than 20% of our earnings to tzedukah. And as far as supporting Torah learning, those of us who pay more in tuition than what it costs to educate our children, are supporting Torah no matter what sort of self-esteem we have.
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