Selective giving | Imamother

TzenaRena

Tue, May 09 2006, 1:25 am

It's all fine and good to give to causes that pull at our heartstrings, but there is a certain kind of Tzedaka which is called supporting Torah, that can't be substituted for by giving other kinds of Tzedaka.

I can't remember, but once there was a specific instruction in our community(I think from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, if my memory serves me correctly) to give in that particular case, specifically to support those who learn Torah.

And it is a known segulah for certain things (again I can't recall what embarrassed

maybe bec. it's late) to support Torah learning. It's great to give any Tzedaka, but supporting Torah is its own category. And the winner is the giver.

Blossom

Tue, May 09 2006, 3:12 am

Quote:

The issue and pain of working boys is real. I think the first solution to the problem is to stop brainwashing all the girls that they all shld be marrying Rebbe Akivva and let him learn 24 years and she'll support him or be supported by her penniless father (or rich father ) There are those who can do it and many who can't. And even if a boy learned til his wedding many don't stop right after because of peer preassure either from their own friends or their wife's peer preassure

I totally agree.

amother

Tue, May 09 2006, 6:28 am

Quote:

I still don't understand the point that seniormom (or amother) is trying to make.

There was the original question about "selective giving".

To illustrate a point about showing respect to supporters of Torah, seniormom told story about a Rosh Yeshiva who encouraged his Talmidim not to feel "above" a man who donated money to their Yeshiva.

Other people came along and said the Rosh Yeshiva must've been blinded by this man's money, and would rather lower his standards of Kashrus than risk losing the donation to the Yeshiva.

I suggested that is the wrong way to look at it. While I cannot verify the story of the movie star, I am personally aware of Yeshivas who won't take money from people who are not Ehrliche Yidden, exactly so as not to be beholden to them. The Rosh Yeshiva knew he could trust his donor's Kashrus, therefore he could accept his money. Not he accepted his money, therefore he must now lower his standards of Kashrus to avoid offending him.

Granted, by the time the thread reached this stage, it had digressed from the orginal point, but other valuable points were made.

Clear as mud?

morningstar

Tue, May 09 2006, 9:22 am

I would agree with Sara Yehudis that Torah-learning is an important cause to support. But there are many ways of supporting it.

One can support organizations that teach that anyone who is not learning full-time must by definition be less worthy (if such organizations exist-- which is an open question.)

Or one can support Torah-learning organizations who value the learning of those who are able to learn full-time, but are also encouraging of the learning of those who are kovei'a itim and seek to include them in the Olam Hatorah.

Crayon210

Tue, May 09 2006, 12:39 pm

sarahd wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I would also assume that he knew all the facts, but now it sounds like anyone who's reasonably frum and donates is an acceptable host. (Huh?!)

Umm...what exactly is wrong with the idea that anyone who is reasonably frum is an acceptable host? Huh?

Because I know many people who are reasonably frum and have different standards than I do, so I have to ask about certain issues before eating in even the frummest homes.

amother

Tue, May 09 2006, 12:49 pm

Quote:

I know many people who are reasonably frum and have different standards than I do, so I have to ask about certain issues before eating in even the frummest homes.

And you've apparently assumed that the Rosh Yeshiva in this case closed his eyes to these issues in order to receive more money.

I've assumed that the Rosh Yeshiva investigated these issues before accepting any money.

See the difference?

Crayon210

Tue, May 09 2006, 12:57 pm

I didn't say that!

I just said that I didn't understand why he would make a blanket statement like that, "If his money is kosher, so is his food." That would lead me to assume that anyone who gives money to a frum institution keeps an acceptably kosher home.

Maybe these aren't exact quotes, because it would have made a lot more sense had he said, "In OUR YESHIVA, if a donor's money is kosher, so is his food," to tell the boys that this is not a concern in the yeshiva.

seniormom

Tue, May 09 2006, 5:18 pm

Quote:

Because I know many people who are reasonably frum and have different standards than I do, so I have to ask about certain issues before eating in even the frummest homes.

Exactly what I said, Crayon:

Quote:

...I'm certain that the Rosh Yeshiva had enough information that the home in question was kosher... If a Rav I respect tells me I can eat somewhere, I will. No different than following him on some other shaila.

BTW, a yasher koach to Amother for explaining what I wrote better than I could myself. Drunken Smile

amother

Tue, May 09 2006, 6:53 pm

Quote:

I didn't say that!

That's why I said "apparently", because although that's how your posts read to me, I don't know what's in your mind.
It may just be a question of semantics. After all, the Rosh Yeshiva was paraphrased, and not quoted verbatim.
Now, do you get what seniormom and I are trying to say?

Quote:

BTW, a yasher koach to Amother for explaining what I wrote better than I could myself.

Brucha Tihyi. My mother is a master at seeing the positive in a situation. It makes it impossible to tell her Lashon Hara. She'll always turn it around so that the person you were upset with, is a complete Tzaddik!!!

Mommy3.5

Tue, May 09 2006, 9:09 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Someone called me on the phone today and guess what she mentioned--that article. Her husband is a cheder rebbe and she agreed to the sentiments expressed in the article. On the surface, it seems that we should be content to marry within our own sphere and give to the kollelim because in their merit, the world continues to exist. By the same token though, what about the poor of our own spheres? And what about the attitude that those who support Torah learning, by their working to provide contributions, are inferior to those whom they support? While no one actually says that they are inferior, there is an implication that being the wife of a supporter is lower than being the wife of the supported. Inorder that Yissachar and Zevulan can co-exist, we have to take away that stigma. Otherwise it would be as Motek said, the kollelim would have to close.

In Bircat Yaakov, Yaakov blesses Zevulan, before Yissachar. The question is asked why did Yaakov bless Zevulan, who was younger before Yissachar who was older?

The answer is, that without Zevulan, There would be no way Yissachner could learn! Zevulanh is the most important part of Yissachers learning.

If Yaakov Aveinu, acknowleged this, then maybe some learning families should realize this important role Zevulan has?

Mommy3.5

Tue, May 09 2006, 9:53 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

morningstar wrote:

Crayon, these are the assumptions that so enraged Cheryl Kupfer's friend. By definition, very few people ( working or learning) end up "gedolim". Rich father-in-law + generous dowry + wife who earns a great living do not necessarily a godol make.

Yiras shomayim/ehrlichkeit/seriousness about learning/ is best assessed on a case by case basis. In my parents' generation it was often Ba'alei batim who gave the daf-yomi shiur and other public shi'urim: not a rarity at all. The drive and sacrifice to become a talmid chacham was not the exclusive province of kollel yungerleit then-- nor should it be today.

I do not know who Cheryl Kupfer is.

Yes, very few people end up being gedolim, but one is more likely to be a talmid chacham if he learns 10 hours a day than 4, 4 rather than 1, etc.

Also, if a person is engaged in other things (medicine, law, business, etc.) as a field of study, he is also less likely than someone who only studies Torah.

I'm not talking about yiras shamayim, ehrlichkeit, and seriousness about learning. I'm talking about results, as in, becoming a posek or mechaber sefarim, etc. Obviously all those midos are important, but I'm talking about the results in terms of intellect and knowledge.

Most people who would qualify as talmidei chachamim are probably not involved in other endeavors besides Torah. That's not necessarily a bad thing. For example, in Chabad, kollel is usually limited to two years, so most men are not accomplishing in learning what kollel yungerleit are if they stay in kollel for ten years or more. That doesn't upset me, it's just the way it is.

oy vey! ever heard of the Rambam? R' yochanan Ha sandlar? Rabbi Akiva? most major halachic figures in the past had jobs, this weeks pirkei avot,"Ein kemach, ein torah, ein torah ein kemach"

It also says in pirki avot that working and learning should be balanced. Sometimes people read pirki Avot, but totally miss the message......

southernbubby

Wed, May 10 2006, 12:20 pm

Even if a person is not in kollel, but is in the world of learning such as teaching in a yeshiva or being a shul rabbi, he can give some of what he has to the working man. Some rabbis have a lunch and learn for working men. One yeshiva rebbe that I know gives a shiur in the apartment complex that houses the young frum working couples. Those rabbis that understand the life of the working Jew, have a better chance of having that Yissachar and Zevulan relationship. Naturally, the working man is more likely to give more support to learning when he sees such a relationship.