Frum and middle income: how to make it work?

shoy18

Mon, May 08 2006, 1:54 pm

amother wrote:

- the schools here are better than any out of town schools, and I wouldnt sacrifice that.

This my dear is wrong, the schools in the city are awful, they dont cater to anyone but the people who fit into thier "box". Do you know if your child is a little slower than others, the only boys school with remidial studies is Chaim Berlin, and if you dont fit their mold then you cant go. The school system is terrible probably the worst in the country. In out of town places or even out of city places they want to help you, they want to make sure your child gets what he needs, in brooklyn, they tell you "sorry cant be of service"

shayna82

Mon, May 08 2006, 1:56 pm

I have to agree with shoy, ny is not all that when it comes to the schooling.

southernbubby

Mon, May 08 2006, 1:59 pm

The great thing about Detroit, besides the low cost of housing, is that no one looks down on smaller simchas or buying clothes at KMart.

zkalan

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:02 pm

I've heard that tuition is free in Israel, so I guess moving to Israel will save on tuition lol

seniormom

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:06 pm

How refreshing, southernbubby!

I understand that Cleveland is the same way. Wish we could move!

amother

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:31 pm

Quote:

amother wrote:

- the schools here are better than any out of town schools, and I wouldnt sacrifice that.

This my dear is wrong,

to clarify: the schools I would consider sending to, are the best in NY in my area. I mean preschool, elementary and high school, not beyond that. it depends, I guess, on what you want for your child, or how you want him educated.
the schools in my area have no problem with dealing with slower kids.

Quote:

The great thing about Detroit, besides the low cost of housing, is that no one looks down on smaller simchas or buying clothes at KMart.

and what I love about NY, is that it is so big, you choose your friends, and ignore the ones who want to know where you buy your clothing or why your simchas only have 200 instead of 500 people. Rolling Eyes

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:42 pm

zkalan wrote:

I've heard that tuition is free in Israel, so I guess moving to Israel will save on tuition lol

thats only true for the public school system, but for anything private, it is a whole other story.

for example, there is secular public, religious public, religious private and other types as well which I am not familiar with. but on a whole you are correct that here school is MUCH cheaper.

chavamom

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:43 pm

stem wrote:

Move out of town where the standard of living, tuition, houses, and much more are way cheaper than the NY area.

There are a lot of hidden costs in living 'out of town' (as I famously posted about our $8/gallon chalav yisrael milk). We order food from NYC a few times a year b/c it is SO MUCH cheaper. When you look at percentage of income, I'm not sure that our tuition is cheaper in terms of 'real dollars' either. How do we do it? I'm not sure! Hash-m helps!

shalhevet

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:44 pm

zkalan wrote:

I've heard that tuition is free in Israel, so I guess moving to Israel will save on tuition lol

Not for the boys unless you want to send them to a state school. BY is free.

If you come here you can save a lot of money on gashmius-related things, though of course you'll earn much less.

chavamom

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:44 pm

SaraG wrote:

The thing is, NYC pays really good salaries. And when you send kids to camp, to out of town yeshivas, and eventually marry them off, it's all NYC prices.

Yup.

batamig

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:45 pm

zkalan wrote:

I've heard that tuition is free in Israel, so I guess moving to Israel will save on tuition lol

its certainly not as expensive as many in the states are, but dont think it is free! it is free for absolute basics - if you want your kid at school any later than 1, you have to pay! it came as a surprise to me . . .

we live in israel, and are happy with our decision, but if we were to go back, it would be to richmond, va - speaking of southern towns. only 6 hrs from the city, you can go for the weekend. and the community is the best I know, and I'm picky - never mind cheap prices and good schools.

chocolate moose

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:47 pm

I love Kmart!

Yes, tuition is a lot less in Israel, but then again, so are other things....like salary....

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:48 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

zkalan wrote:

I've heard that tuition is free in Israel, so I guess moving to Israel will save on tuition lol

Not for the boys unless you want to send them to a state school. BY is free.

If you come here you can save a lot of money on gashmius-related things, though of course you'll earn much less.

mummyof6 - for the boys are you talking about the charedi school system? its free for the girls but not for the boys?
and when you said state school, you know that there is a religious one as well, right?...
also, you said that you can save on gashmiut things...just curious what types of things did you mean?... Smile

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:49 pm

SaraG wrote:

I love Kmart!

Yes, tuition is a lot less in Israel, but then again, so are other things....like salary....

right but the whole cost of living is just much less here in Israel.

chavamom

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:52 pm

I've heard good things about Detroit and Cleveland. St. Louis is nice, but only has one restaurant and no boys yeshiva (boys 'yeshiva high school' that is 'too left for the right, too right for the left' is the long standing joke). I was born in St. Louis, so I've seen the ups and downs over the years. They do have a Beis Ya'akov high school.

shalhevet

Mon, May 08 2006, 2:57 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

Yes, BY is free because it's Chinuch Atzmai, but chareidi boys' schools are private and are totally outside the state system. (There are some chareidi Chinuch Atzmai boys' schools but they are usually of a lower religious standing, though I heard in Kiryat Sefer there is an excellent one) This is deliberate so that the government can't dictate what is/isn't taught there.

The religious state schools are free, but they are a totally different kind of school and chareidim wouldn't send there, and also many serious dati leumi don't send there.

By gashmiut things I mean that here people are not going to look down on you if you make a simple simcha, buy cheap clothes or use hand-me-downs etc. In the kolel world there's even a kind of reverse snobbery that if your furniture is falling to pieces and your kids wear second-hand clothes you're part of the crowd and someone to be admired.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 08 2006, 3:01 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

ytwh1 wrote:

wow, mummyof6,thanks you for all of that info about schools. I never knew that.
so you said that even some more dati leumi families also wouldnt send to state religiuos schools. then can I ask (I dont know about the school system, dont have any children yet to send:>) where would they send their children? if they are not charedi......but dont want the state school...

shalhevet

Mon, May 08 2006, 3:22 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

There is a chain of schools called Noam, which teach much more Jewish studies plus much more makpid on mitzvos, but with a dati leumi hashkafa. There are also some places which have private schools more on the line of chareidi talmudei torah but with a dati leumi hashkafa. The state religious schools have a low religious standard and in many places some or many of their pupils are from traditional, as opposed to religious, homes.

Tzippy

Tue, May 09 2006, 2:06 am

In Israel it all depends on the CITY! Some of the state religious schools are far more excellent than the chareidi system. In Israel, if you are in a frum city there is a religious label called Chardal (Charedi dati leumi)-basically the schools are very frum, no TV allowed, students and teachers from heimishe homes, but are not against the State school standards. They employ frum teachers trained by Misrad Hachinuch. To be a teacher getting paid thru Misrad Hachinuch a teacher has to go through vigorous training. It is an intensive teacher training system. Those teachers have to follow strict policies-and formal protocols. They are trained to work with all kinds of kids with all kinds of learning issues, and there is a firm policy of "no child left behind" that is admirable.
Those in the charedi systems do not need that training to teach, therefore there is more 'winging it'. Teachers in the chareidi system teach a ton of hashkafa and Torah, but actual skills are not necessarily taught. When you walk into a Bais Yaakov, chances are that the teacher is going to be a few years out of seminary. Same for many chadorim. In many chadorim, the rebbes hit students to discipline-it is against Misrad Hachinuch-and the State of Israel to do that.
Misrad Hachinuch teachers have inspectors (like the English system) that come in and reevaluate the teachers every year. When you walk into a chardal or dati leumi state school, the teachers are older and more experienced. The ones that can't teach have been fired. There are also standardized testing called Meitzav (elementary school), and Bagrut (high school), that the Misrad Hachinuch schools must take. (There is a tanach bagrut that would not be easily passed by many chareidi yeshivos because it includes Navi, which is often not taught in boys' charedi high schools).
Misrad Hachinuch teachers get paid better salaries with benefits. They are forced by their contracts to take hishtamliyut, which are teacher training classes to enrich their skills. Anyone can be a Rebbe or Morah in the cheder system if they meet the livush requirements (no denim, velvet kippah, one or two headcoverings for women, thick stockings, etc..). There is no middos or formal skills except for a seminary degree and a few kollel years.
Many chareidi school systems do not teach science, geography, computers, or limudei chol. Most of my chareidi cousins in Israel are proud that they have never had a science class. Some only learn in Yiddish. It is assur for them to learn English. The math studies end at about 8th grade. Yes they learn Torah, and emphasize gemara, and raise a family based on kollel, they have a VERY HARD TIME getting work. (there are 750,000 hungry kids in Israel!) My cousins' daily supper is chumus and pita!
Incidentally, due to the influx of nefesh bNefesh North American olim, there are now new boys high schools "chardal" ideaology, cropping up all over the place that teach boys gemara from 8-2 and have limudei chol from 2-5. (Much like the American yeshiva system) Rabbonim will NOT endorse these schools publicly, but privately many chareidi parents who ask shaalos from their Rabbanim have been given the green light to send their kids to these places. Frum olim from North America are slowly changing the system, but VERY slowly.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 09 2006, 5:40 am

tzippy and mummyof6, thank you so much for all of the info about the school system in Israel. it is good to learn these types of things before you have to know it all!

just a curious question, how did you learn all of the info about the school sytems? I mean, you come to the country and how do you choose which types of school you want your children to be in?