New Square Shaul Spitzer gets 7 years jail!!!!!!!!!!!

sequoia

Thu, Apr 19 2012, 8:00 pm

Sherri wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Yah, well. I'm MO, so maybe MY comment is disrespectful. But IYamWhoIYam is intimately familiar with that world. So I'll take her word on it.

Does that make her comment more respectful?

I think it's okay to criticize our own communities. Words like "respect" are often used by religious groups to stifle criticism, as you know.

saw50st8

Fri, Apr 20 2012, 6:41 am

Sherri wrote:

I don't have anything against criticizing a community's practices if they are harmful. But the "levush" on its own is not inherently harmful. Perhaps the way a community manipulates its dress code is to be criticized, but that's not what you commented on.

I disagree.

Giving holiness to clothing worn by 18th century Polish royalty in 2012 does nothing for Judaism and only increases hatred. There is nothing positive about the levush.

718

Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:02 am

DrMom wrote:

Boots vs shoes, pants-tuckers vs non-tuckers. This is so important that someone would actually get harassed for doing otherwise?

Sounds like a variation of the Swiftian big-endians vs little-endians.

Well normally they dont get harassed... If a boy doesnt want to wear socks/shoe look, its not a big deal at all. Most follow, the ones who dont have zero issue. Its not enforced like that.

ChossidMom

Sat, Apr 21 2012, 6:00 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Sherri wrote:

I disagree.

Giving holiness to clothing worn by 18th century Polish royalty in 2012 does nothing for Judaism and only increases hatred. There is nothing positive about the levush.

And I disagree with YOU.
My husband is Amshinov and wears a spudik and a kapote (like 18th century Polish nobility). You find something inherently wrong with the way he dresses? It may not be "positive" but it sure as heck isn't negative and if it increases hatred then there is something very wrong with the haters. It's just a uniform. Just like someone else's suit and tie or someone's jeans. A uniform which reflects belonging to a certain group.

There is nothing holy about clothing btw unless it's tzitzis.

saw50st8

Sat, Apr 21 2012, 10:21 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Sherri wrote:

I disagree.

Giving holiness to clothing worn by 18th century Polish royalty in 2012 does nothing for Judaism and only increases hatred. There is nothing positive about the levush.

I think the chassidish uniform is at best neutral but at its worst creates divisiveness. Read IYam's post.

Listen, I strongly believe that everyone has the right to wear what they wish. But I absolutely believe that is causes more harm than does anyone any good.

black sheep

Sat, Apr 21 2012, 11:21 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Sherri wrote:

I disagree.

Giving holiness to clothing worn by 18th century Polish royalty in 2012 does nothing for Judaism and only increases hatred. There is nothing positive about the levush.

wearing the levush represents belonging to a certain group, at the exclusion of all other groups. this contributes tremendously to sinas chinum. we are all brothers (and sisters) and we should not dress in ways that distinguish us from each other. I know many will disagree, but I feel strongly enough about this to post without further explanation.

ChossidMom

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 12:18 am

So, how must one dress in order not to exclude? Where does one draw the line? Wearing a kippa is also excluding others, no? Any way that you make yourself look different from secular Jews or gentiles means you are excluding. And all Jews dress how? Are you saying you want to establish a uniform where everyone dresses the same? Which uniform? How about a black suit and hat. Would that work for you? No? How about a kipa sruga? Oh, right. That works, right? Is it ok to wear the tzitzis out or is that also exclusive?

I have a better idea. How about we respect that there are all different kinds of people/Jews and just respect everyone with their levush!

celestial

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 1:08 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I think the question is - what does this represent? If someone says their certain socks or hat or coat represents something important to them that had something to do with religion, belief, history etc. then that would be fascinating and cool and we can say I respect this different kind of Jew or what have you.

But as Jews, we are supposed to focus more on achdus than on needless differentiation, so if someone just does it by route, it's hard to respect a disciplined commitment to something that apparently doesn't have any meaning and serves to cause strife.

groisamomma

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 1:20 am

I haven't read all the previous pages, but from what I see here it looks like the people that have problems with levush feel that way because wearing this levush signifies in some way that that person is held to a higher standard (by himself and others) and often they are not behaving that way.

Not sure I'm being clear, so IOW if you want to dress holier than the norm, act that way.

celestial

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 1:23 am

groisamomma wrote:

Yeah, I agree. If someone has to do some serious work on their bein adam l'chavero, just as an example, then maybe wearing holier-than-thou style clothing is a frustrating to an outsider, because it does religion a disservice to be represented as such. (Not saying this is always the case, but when it is...big chillul Hashem!)

Raisin

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 6:25 am

black sheep wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Sherri wrote:

I disagree.

Giving holiness to clothing worn by 18th century Polish royalty in 2012 does nothing for Judaism and only increases hatred. There is nothing positive about the levush.

So I am sure you have shpitzles and thick brown stockings in your wardrobe, along with denim skirts and hats and tichels and sheitals. While your husband makes sure to wear different kippot every day.

saw50st8

Sun, Apr 22 2012, 6:53 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I think wearing clothing majorly out of the norm is a lot more divisive.

I don't think it makes any sense to create a uniform. Looking back at pictures of my relatives for the last few generations, they wore "regular" clothing.

Wearing a kippah is slightly different IMO because a man needs a headcovering for making brachot. As are tzitzit.

smilethere

Tue, Apr 24 2012, 8:00 am

saw50st8 wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

What happens if it is in the norm in my community? What happens if there is no norm,
if every shul has a different costume, what's more divisive, the fact that they daven in different places, keep different minhagim and pronounce things differently, or the fact that they wear different clothes?