Vent: tznius at the pool

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:49 pm

return2You wrote:

Calling out specific people to your children is Lashon Hara and totally a double standard if you consider yourself a frum, Torah-abiding Jew.

Not if they are doing something that is clearly wrong. Same way that I will educate them about my in-laws not doing certain things that we consider Halacha. That doesn't mean that they don't need to respect the person as a Yid and as a human being, but that doesn't mke what they are doing right and my children need to know that.

Look, I mentioned before (and this is very senstive info for me to be posting under my own SN, so please be respectful) that I have relatives who are in trouble with the law. My parents have been very honest with my younger siblings about these realities, that it's sad that the person is in trouble, but their actions are wrong. I don't think that the two are contradictory.

return2You

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:54 pm

I understand and I don't mean to be disrespectful...
But the Torah is beautiful and just and can stand on its own feet. We don't need to point fingers to get the message across. Our kids are smarter than we think and can figure out right from wrong on their own if the Torah is taught right, don't you think?

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:59 pm

return2You wrote:

Yes, but my kids will natrually be exposed to it. My IL's put on no airs where they are with us. My MIL will wear her pants, my FIL doesn't always wear a Yarmulka, and they may or may not wash before eating bread when it's not the Shabbos table, just for a few small examples. Kids are very quick to point out inconsistencies, and I cannot and will not say that these inconsistencies are okay. That doesn't mean that I won't teach them to have the highest respect for people regardless of what they do or don't do, but they need to understand he inconsistencies.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 6:17 pm

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

I once heard in the name of the Ba'al Shem Tov,
If a person sees a fault in another person it is because they themselves have this fault. H-Shem is reflecting it on them in order for them to realize and fix it.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 6:17 pm

amother wrote:

This is just a vent as I know that nothing could be done at this point. I was at the pool in another state on a vacation. There was a frum lady at the pool. She would not swim with men or boys in the pool. Yet she had no problem walking around with short sleeves in front of my husband and older son. She also sat with her elbows and knees totally exposed at the pool in front of other men. How can someone always covers everything act like this.
I just don't get it. Why the double standard. Please explain it to me because it's really bothering me. Why is it ok to act differently when you are on vacation than when you are in Brooklyn???

Ok. Vent over. (but not feeling much better) Confused

Um.... I don't understand if you're so makpid how your husband and son can even put themselves in a situation where they might see something objectionable? Obviously you don't care enough to not go on this type of vacation. A bit hypocritical . If your ok going to a hotel (while many others would never) at least close the shades. No I'm not passing judgment ..I personally go to hotels, and couldn't care less what others do bc I worry about MYSELF and my family only. but I'd keep you're side of the street clean before criticizing others.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 6:20 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, I heard this too.

I once learned a beautiful lesson in Likutey Mohoran. It's called Azamra. Basically, every single person has at least one good point, a nekudah tovah, and when we see people, instead of focusing on the negative, we should find that good point. Not only does that elevate us, it elevates them as well.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 6:20 pm

amother wrote:

It's a gemarah - וכל הפסול פוסל. And there another more on point I can't remember off top of my head. I'll ask DH when he comes home. And yes I totally agree

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:24 pm

I recently had the zechut of visiting the Kever of Rabbi Levi Yitzchok of Bardichov.
Can't we try to look at people positively.
There are enough judgments from above and below.
Maybe, say,WOW! Even though this lady really wanted to go swimming, she got out of the pool because the men came.
I'm sorry if I don't express myself better.
But, WE REALLY NEED MOSHIACH TO COME ALREADY!!!
Let's keep this in mind before we judge others.
Also, wouldn't you want to be judged favorably after 120yrs.
A small price to pay (thinking favorably) for eternal life.

I'm amother because I don't want anyone to judge me, there goes another (fill in the blank).

It's hard and I was just like the original poster, but recently I've been thinking enough is enough. We need to be nice to each other.

watergirl

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:28 pm

amother wrote:

Rebbe Nachman for the win!

amother

Cyan

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:56 pm

Ok, I can't read the whole thread, but food for thought to be DLKZ, I suffer from mild psoriasis. Especially on my knees and elbows. Due to strictly keeping them covered most of the year, they don't benefit from sunshine which is very healing for psoriasis. When I go on vacation, I often pull my tznius swimsuit skirt up, and roll up sleeves a bit - just enough so my knees and elbows can get a much needed dose of summer sun. I would not go around like that otherwise. While I feel certain hashem would understand, I am not so sure about the neighbors.....

BetsyTacy

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 10:22 pm

This whole thread is so bizarre to me. I am not yeshivish or chassidish and apparantly know less than I thought I did about these worlds.

I have learned from this thread that some people don't really believe that the way they dress for their community is really necessary in the great big world

It seems the husbands are fine with it too-including the lady who swims with her husband and anyone else while wearing a bikini.

The weird part to me is the kids. A seamed-stocking double covering lady feels comfortable wearing a regular bathing suit with just a thigh length coverup in front of her sons?
Were the kids really little? Otherwise aren't these parents afraid of their sons blabbing it all to their friends or heaven help them, their rebbis in school? Wouldn't their whole world implode?

amother

Azure

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 10:57 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think your male family members will burst into flames from seeing some knees and elbows. We live in the world. Not everyone does exactly what you do. Move on.

freedomseek

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:11 pm

Leahh wrote:

I think people are nit-picking on the details but the general idea of what the op is saying is real and I agree with her.
People slack off on their beliefs when they are on vacation.
How many men wouldn't miss minyan when they're home but then go away on vacation to a place that doesn't have a minyan?
How many women cover their hair fully at home (not literally at home, but in her home town) then goes on vacation and wears a cap with her pony sticking out?
Or woman that wouldn't wear short sleeves but do on vacation?
People that eat food, kashrus-wise, that they would never allow into their home?
The list can be endless. People think that being on vacation means being on vacation from religious beliefs as well.
It's not our place to judge what we see but it is bothersome when you see it and know how wrong it is. I don't blame op for wanting to vent about what she saw. It's not as if she approached the woman and told her what she's doing is wrong. She's merely stating that she's bothered by the fact that the woman who presumably would be super careful about her knees and elbows covered when at home is away on vacation and suddenly does not care at all about being in front of men with her knees and elbows uncovered. She's entitled to be bothered and vent about it.
Eta: I once heard a speech by Rabbi Z Wallerstein on this topic. He said soon after he got married he went on vacation with his wife to a place that didn't have a minyan. He called his father and was schmoozing and it came out that there was no minyan. His father got furious at him (which he says was a rarity) and said that's not the way I raised you. Just because you're on vacation doesn't mean you allowed to Daven b'yichudis. Get on the next flight to a place that has a minyan. And R' Wallerstein elaborates alot on this issue and that vacation doesn't mean we're any less Jewish than we are at home.

Just as a side note
Reb Baruch ber Leibovitz when asked about having minyan on vacation he said " a vacation with a minyan is not a vacation!"

BrachaBatya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:36 pm

Oh dear, her ELBOWS and KNEES were exposed?! What a shanda.

Not every Orthodox woman covers elbows and knees at all times.

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:04 am

amother wrote:

Ok ladies. I really have no problem with her swimming but I would have expected more from her to at least cover up better.
I guess I'm expecting too much.

Why on earth would you be expecting anything from a stranger

yogabird

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:25 am

freedomseek wrote:

Just as a side note
Reb Baruch ber Leibovitz when asked about having minyan on vacation he said " a vacation with a minyan is not a vacation!"

Do you have a source for this? Knowing just a little bit about who he was, I'm having a very hard time believing he said this.

Another mom

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:39 am

amother wrote:

Was thinking the same (not psoriasis but maybre vitamin D?)

heidi

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:20 am

No one has a porch or a backyard? Or a family member or close friend with one?
I'm just saying that if you don't normally show those body parts it's weird to make excuses to show them on vacation.
If you want to do it, fine. But then admit like the poster above that sometimes you cover your knees and elbows and sometimes you don't.
Don't make up justifications.
Also, I truly believe that consistency is the key to raising happy children who will most likely follow your ways religiously.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:31 am

All this judgment! How many women here had to sign letters for your children's schools saying you wouldn't use the internet? Or that if you did it would only be for work, etc. And now here you are on Imamother. Do you go online publicly? Is this a site you go to in front of all your neighbors? I honestly don't care. I'm not judging anyone who does this.

I was raised ultra yeshivish. Now I'm very far left- I could never live that hidden lifestyle. I "came out" a long time ago. I couldn't live that extreme way. While I feel "free" now, I suffered so much during leaving my community and then after leaving my community. I never regret it. I love the freedom I have right now of not having to worry about all these things that to me are frivolities. But having gone through it, I could never ever judge someone who doesn't choose to leave, or "just move to another community" as some women here are saying.

First of all, a lot of women writing don't come from such extreme communities. So you have no idea what it's like to be completely dependent on your community, emotionally and socially, having been immersed in an extreme ideology since before you can talk. Moving to another community is not simple. Besides for the severe psychological and emotional impact of losing your entire social network, if you're raised in such a community, you haven't been raised to see all Jewish groups as a simple alternative to practicing Judaism. In fact, a lot of extreme groups preach that the more modern groups are simply not frum. I had relatives who went to Yeshiva of Flatbush and Prospect Park yeshiva, and I was raised thinking that they were simply not frum. Some of you may not believe this, but this is how we were raised. (This, btw, is why a lot of women leaving extreme groups don't look for alternatives within the Jewish community. If they're all not frum, why take on any of the burden of Judaism.)

Many of these women are married very young. By the time they're making these discoveries, they already have children, and these tremendously giving mothers are taking their children's and husband's lives into consideration. Many parents decide that it would be in the child's best interest if they stay within the community (for the child's emotional security) and if they need to let loose sometimes on vacation, so be it.

I left that community because I couldn't live that lifestyle. But I had no children, no husband at that time. Having lived it and left it, perhaps I would be considered even better situated to judge this woman. But I'm not better situated to judge her than any other woman on this forum or in this world. Because I didn't create her, I don't know the limits of her brain, I don't know her emotional capacity or her life experiences. Neither do any of you. When you find yourself judging other people you don't understand, ask yourself how you got there. Ask yourself how you got to such an arrogant place that you presume to know the capacity of another individual's emotional, mental, and psychological capacity. I'm not judging any of you "judgers" either. I sometimes judge people in other situations. But we all have a lot to learn.

Shabbat shalom.

Rutabaga

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 5:18 am

I dress the same way on vacation as I do at home, but that's not an issue for me because as a WAHM I can dress comfortably all the time. I wear the same 3/4 sleeve t-shirts and just past the knee denim skirts or washable black skirts whether I leave the house or not. If it's 90° outside I wear a pre-tied bandana rather than a sheitel whether I'm running local errands or hiking.

I was going to say that I'm lucky to live in a community where it doesn't matter what I wear, but truthfully it's not luck. DH and I chose to move to this particular area and raise our children here. I fit right in with the other mothers at my children's schools, although some of them dress fancier than I do. There is quite a variety of hashkafa and dress in the area, so I have friends who wear tights or knee-his all year round while I'm walking around barefoot in sandals in the summer.

I can't imagine having to wear tights and restrictive clothing and double covering my hair in the heat of the summer. I'd probably never leave my air conditioned house if I had to do that because I'd die of heat stroke. Kol hakavod to the women who follow their community's norms and manage to thrive. But I can't blame or judge people who need a little break from the restrictions and peer pressure that they live under all the time.

Live and let live and don't go poking your nose into anyone else's tent. Ma tovu ohalecha Yaakov!

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