Because of some men, I can’t live my life

amother

Antiquewhite

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:51 am

You wouldn’t walk out wheee there are men in a nightgown even if it covers knees and elbows. Part of the mitzvah of tznius is acknowledging that Hashem made a world where men are challenged and not to add to that challenge.

amother

Obsidian

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:51 am

amother OP wrote:

My daas Torah doesn’t think it’s correct BECAUSE men are going to watch my videos. Even if I say they shouldn’t. Even if they’re married. Even if I’m talking to other women. That makes them creepy to me.

Sorry I don't find anything creepy about that.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:51 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

You want me to say not to bash rabbanim because your rebbe isn't extreme at all but realistic. Well, sorry he lost me. The woman who use social media (mind you imamother is technically also social media) and are perfectly tzinius don't ask a shaila for everything they do in their lives.

I’ll just clarify in case it wasn’t clear. DH’s rebbe only said posting videos of myself can be problematic. Having social media in general wasn’t the topic. I do have Instagram, and I post regularly, but never posted pics of vids of myself or any other women. And that’s no an issue.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:53 am

amother Aqua wrote:

I can't really answer your question because I don't agree with the whole premise. I didn't ask a rav nor would I ever think to, I do share my face on instagram.

That said, you don't have to show your face on Instagram. Film your desk, your hands doing something, etc and do voiceover. There are many successful brands that don't show faces.

I considered this, and still am. But it’s still not the same. Thanks for the suggestion!

amother

Obsidian

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:54 am

amother Antiquewhite wrote:

So now, a woman, dressed perfectly tznius and just talking, is a challenge for men? Can't Believe It

Op isn't dancing, dressing provocatively, speaking seductively or anything else that might seem wrong. What is the sin of watching a woman speak?!

juggling

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:55 am

amother OP wrote:

OP, feel free to PM me if you want ideas for how you could achieve the effect you're going for without showing your face.

Ima_Shelli

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:56 am

I wouldn’t have asked a Rav about this.

Once you ask, if this is your hashkafah (to ask this sort of question to a Rav) you’re kind of in the boat where you need to listen. At least that’s how I see it.

I don’t ask on things I don’t think are a question. If a creepy man wants to watch my video that is fully on him IMHO. It would never occur to me to ask otherwise. But kol hakavod if you’re the sort of person who wants to hand over that decision making to someone else. I fully admit that I am not.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:57 am

amother Rainbow wrote:

OP, do you really thik that you wil loose out by doing the right thing ? This isn't about creepy men, you probably know that, but right now you wan't something badly which might not be in accordance with the torah, which frustrates you, so you are putting the blame somewhere else.

So you’re not the first one on this thread saying it’s not about creepy men. Can you explain?

This rebbe said it is because of men. That is the only reason. And I labeled them creepy because that’s what it feels like to me. To watch videos of a frum married lady talking about something that is irrelevant to men, is creepy to me. Like getaway and stop looking.

I personally know a few normal frum ladies on Instagram and they most definitely have frum men watching them. They get likes, comments and messages from men. I know this first hand.

I don’t want men watching me. And I don’t think any other healthy woman on Instagram does either, but it’s the reality.

NechaMom

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:00 am

amother OP wrote:

I don’t think it’s creepy for a man in the business world to watch a business ad of a woman.
If you’d be modeling clothing it would be creepy for men to watch.
That said, it’s a level of tznius not to put yourself out there at all and you/your husband chose that by asking a rav.
So I stand by what I said. This has nothing with creepy men and all about a level that you chose willingly.

Last edited by NechaMom on Tue, May 30 2023, 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:00 am

NechaMom wrote:

Your title is misleading. You are following daas Torah and that’s why you are not using Instagram. This is not about creepy men. It’s a level that you or your DH chose. If you are this resentful about it you shouldn’t have asked and just do as you please.

Again, daas Torah said most likely no only because of the men. That is the only reason why he said it’s problematic.

Also, I don’t agree that if I’m this resentful I shouldn’t have asked. I don’t have to love every answer I get. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t ask…
I’m allowed to be upset and still listen. Hopefully soon I’ll get over it and be happy moving forward, knowing I’m doing the right thing.

amother

Obsidian

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:02 am

amother OP wrote:

I don't know the topic you speak of but if those men are married it might be relevant to their wife and will share it with them.
Dh shares with me videos he's seen (not necessarily Instagram) that are irrelevant to him personally but I would find relevant and interesting.
Obviously if a man follower is watching your videos and commenting "hot!" or something like that completely off topic then yeah that's creepy.
But I wouldn't assume that every man watching a video of a woman talking is creepy.

NechaMom

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:02 am

amother OP wrote:

We cross posted. See my reply above.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:02 am

amother Indigo wrote:

How is not about creepy men? The Rav told her that the concern is that it's really hard for some men. The Torah does not preclude showing women's faces.

Yes! Finally someone who gets it!
If there was no concern about men watching me, then there would be no problem.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:04 am

amother Tangerine wrote:

[u]

Are you sure the bolded is true?

I'm not advising on what the OP should do. But it would seem to be pretty naïve to suggest that hashem runs the world in a way where people who "do the right thing" avoid hardship. It's the old why do bad things happen to go people question. But it seems pretty clear that often times people are doing the right thing and get slapped in the face. It also seems pretty clear that sometimes people who do the wrong thing are rewarded in this world.

This is just reality.

Thanks for saying this. I agree. We asked this to his rebbe and he said it’s not something he can answer because we just don’t know.

Some ppl do get rewarded in this world even if they do the wrong thing…

And some ppl do the right thing and suffer in other ways. This is sometimes how the world runs, and it’s ok. Hashem has a cheshbon that we don’t understand

NechaMom

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:05 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes! Finally someone who gets it!
If there was no concern about men watching me, then there would be no problem.

Right because there’s a level of tznius that men shouldn’t watch women at all so women shouldn’t post videos of themselves online. It’s about your tznius and daas Torah, not creepy men.
It’s like you’re saying “because of creepy men I can’t walk outside in a bikini”.

amother

Obsidian

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:06 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes! Finally someone who gets it!
If there was no concern about men watching me, then there would be no problem.

You can eliminate the word creepy.
Because men exist in this world and some people have very perverted opinions of them you were told not to post yourself...
This is about the advice you were given not the fact that men exist.

(For the record I'm chassidish, I just despise this s*xualizing of everything about women and making men out to be creepy monsters all the time.)

Phoebe31

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:06 am

First of all, how is it your problem if men are watching? That's their responsibility.

Second, are you dancing, singing or showing up in way undressed? If not, I don't understand why men can't see the videos?

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:06 am

singleagain wrote:

I don't really understand why it's not the man's problem? Maybe if the rabbi explain this to you more you would be less resentful?

Personally, this isn't something I would ask because I do think it is exactly the men's problem.

It really sucks if they're putting the burden of the man's commandment on the woman. I don't think that's right and I have yet to hear it explained to me in a way that I understand that.

So he said to call him back on Thursday. He knows I will not take an answer without a thorough explanation. So I’m gonna get real clear on the issue and hopefully will update here then.

juggling

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:06 am

I once read an article, probably in Family First, about a woman who was running a successful dance school in Israel. She was given some guidelines by daas Torah, that basically would undermine the whole vibe of the dance school (which was not violating halacha at all). I remember reading in shock, that she felt she needed to follow her rav, as hard as it was. I don't remember how the story ended, other than that she was happy with the ending. I wonder if anyone could find a link to that article, maybe it would give you chizuk.

amother

Aqua

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:10 am

This to me is the same thing as not printing women's faces in magazines. Which I don't agree with either.

This is not halacha, it's not about creepy men. I don't think it's creepy for a man to watch me talking. If I gave a lecture I don't mind if he sits in the audience. I'm always mindful to share things in a way that I know I'm okay if a guy who davens with my husband and will recognize me in the street, watches.

It's your own level of tznius. Don't put this on the men.