Why are women not counted in a Minyan?

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 7:58 am

b.chadash wrote:

That's fair. I just want to point out that Emaof 4 said that tefilla is not a chiyuv, when in fact it is. ORGANIZED tefilla is not (according to the Rambam, while the Ramban disagrees.) In any case, minyan is not a chiyuv for men either. It is a very important precept but not a chiyuv.

As far as the "not being curious" remark, Rabbi Breitowitz actually prefaced his remarks by saying something like "This is good to know because maybe some of you will end up as shul Rabbis. For some people this will not be a satisfactory answer because nothing will. [Meaning, for those feminists who just have an agenda, no answer will be good]."

I also have never been too curious about this question, having just assumed that it has to do with a mitzvas aseh shehazman grama, and also because it's too difficult to run to minyan 3 times a day when you are supposed to be raising your kids (who would baabysit???)

However, I still found his answers to be very satisfying and interesting, and that is why I shared them. They may not be the only answers. There are often many answers to the same question.

I just want to point out that I DID say our chiyuv is different. The “just aren’t curious” snide comment quoted the post right under mine, and came after I had already said that our chiyuv is different.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 12:40 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

Not to quibble on small things here but the "just aren't curious comment" had nothing to do with saying that our chiyuv is different (which is correct.) It was addressing the fact that you said you prefer the simple answer, and implying that the other answer is "fluff". I agree the comment was snide and you did not deserve that.

That being said, different answers work for different people. Some people really appreciate deeper answers (what others call "fluff"), while others prefer only the straightforward answer. And that is what is so beautiful about the Torah. There are many levels and facets, and there is something that will appeal to everyone.

While you are right that the only reason we do a mitzva or follow halacha is because that is what Hashem said, there are also many beautiful reasons our sages have attached to mitzvos, which they share with us in order to make it more palatable to the mind. There are many sefarim on the taamei hamitzvos, such as Sefer Hachinuch which, aside from enumerating the scope of each mitzva, addresses the philosophical underpinnings as well. Yes, we can do each mitzva without understanding at all why they were commanded. But for many people, having a taste of some of the reasons behind it makes it much more "tasteful" and enjoyable. I do not keep TH because it creates a better marriage. But when I hear the many ways that this mitzva has shown to be a blessing for marriages, it makes it so much more pleasant. (and by the way, many of these "reasons" are sourced in the gemara.)

↑ Crookshanks

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:05 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I really appreciate this post because while I do love the explanations and te'amei hamitzvos at the end of the day I usually fall back on "Rachmana Amar tik'u."
I also really like this thread in general-thanks for coming on here to spread an inspiring thought!

↑ Ema of 5

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 2:16 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I know it had nothing to do with it, I was just pointing out that it was after I clarified.
I have no issue with people who like fluffy answers. Everyone needs to go down the path that works for them.

↑ imorethanamother ↓

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 3:51 pm

OP, I appreciate this perspective, but I really wish these kinds of posts would stop happening. Men say "Shelo asani isha" for a reason. Whether you want to go by some modern interpretations, and say it's because women have been mistreated more than men. Or by the rishonim, that say that the reason is because women don't have the same mitzvos as men, and lose out, the result is the same.

I don't think it's in good taste to celebrate the fact that we are not given the same opportunities as men in regard to mitzvos. Sometimes, women don't seem to mind all that much in the first place (minyanim), and sometimes we very much do (succos time seems to come to mind.).

And I don't appreciate men who get up and pat us on the head and tell us, "there, there, you. Don't you mind the grown ups, isn't it special you DON'T have to do these important things?" I find it insulting. Like if my boss, who makes ten times as much as I do, would tell me, "Isn't it great that you don't have to worry about owning a business like I do? It's because you're such a GREAT employee that you don't have to get up early in the morning and do all these boring business deals!" He wouldn't have his business without me, and yes I'm important to his company, but don't try to convince me I'm somehow more important.

↑ b.chadash

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 6:08 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Imorethanamother, what should I say? I hear where you are coming from completely.

However, please realize that while you find this insulting, others find this very enlightening. Judging by the number of posters who commented that they appreciated this or they liked it, I gather I am not the only one who finds this interesting. (By the way, Rabbi Breitowitz was addressing a room full of young men- not women. And, as an aside, he isn't the type to be patronizing. He has a very truthful, direct way of expressing himself.)

I understand that you feel this is patronizing, and you are free to skip over these threads. There are many, many threads on this board that I would not engage in, nor would I even open. But apparently, other women like to discuss those things, so good for them.

In response to what you view as being in poor taste, I personally don't view it as celebrating the fact that we don't have the same opportunities as men in regard to mitzvos. I have many mitzva opportunities that my husband does not. The Torah was set up in such a way that no one can fulfill all 613. A Yisroel cannot fulfill that which a Levi can, and a Levi cannot fulfill those mitzvos of a Cohen. A woman has many mitzvos that are special to her (aside from the three "women mitzvos".) Men and woman have their own mitzvos. I'm not saying this in order to be patronizing (again.) This is how I see it.

To my view, the most important aspects of Jewish living are entrusted to the Jewish woman. Taharas Hamishpacha, keeping a kosher home, and probably above all, raising the next generation, is primarily entrusted to the mother of the house. I imagine none of this speaks to you, and that is fine. I am personally fine with my role and therefore I don't view these explanations as anything but a deeper insight into the matter. (I'm not intimating that you are not happy with your role. But I gather that it hurts you to be excluded from certain men-oriented mitzvos and therefore you do not appreciate being told that really you dont need these mitzvos.)

By the way what I personally found interesting in this thought was not so much an explanation for why women are exempt from minyan (which never really bothered me), but the underlying ideas of being able to rectify a sin only if you were culpable in it, as well as the way he explained about man's nature of aloneness vs. Womans nature of camaraderie being traced back to the creation of man and woman. I thought the way he expressed himself was exquisitely beautiful. (For me, the minyan part was just a side point, since it never really bothered me.)

↑ imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 7:39 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I understand that you feel this is patronizing, and you are free to skip over these threads. There are many, many threads on this board that I would not engage in, nor would I even open. But apparently, other women like to discuss those things, so good for them.

By the way what I personally found interesting in this thought was not so much an explanation for why women are exempt from minyan (which never really bothered me), but the underlying ideas of being able to rectify a sin only if you were culpable in it, as well as the way he explained about man's nature of aloneness vs. Womans nature of camaraderie being traced back to the creation of man and woman. I thought the way he expressed himself was exquisitely beautiful. (For me, the minyan part was just a side point, since it never really bothered me.)

Well said. I also apologize, I shouldn't have said anything derogatory about Rabbi Breitowitz. I don't know him at all. I'm sure I'm misreading him, and he's an extremely erliche person.

I also like the idea about sin rectification. I think the reason why I clicked on this link, and why I replied, is because I've been listening to a lot of Rabbi Glatstein. I included a link from one of his shiurim that discuss minyanim in an earlier post on this thread.

In it, he goes into - at length - the reasons why davening with a minyan is such an incredible privilege, such a zchus, and why it improves your tefilos. As you wrote, each of us have a role to fill, and no one can do it all. Which is exactly WHY Hashem wants a minyan. Because each person in the minyan fills the gap, the lack, and so the sum total of the tefilah is a complete tefilah from a complete person. They all together form the completeness of the person.

I daven in my own home, and I don't believe women should go out and make their own minyan, because it won't help. We aren't counted for it. But I do believe that we are lacking for not joining a minyan whenever we can. Our tefilos aren't answered the way they might be had we davened with a group. I get very sad about that. I daven much better in shul, and it feels like I'm lacking this spiritual part of my life. I hope one day I might be able to daven with a minyan, only because it would improve my own tefilos, it would improve my spiritual standing, and it might cause my tefilos to be answered.

Which is why I see your post, and see women say, "Yeah! We don't need to daven in a minyan because we don't have to rectify any sin!" Okay. Maybe so. But is that the message we want out there? We don't need this amazing, beautiful, wonderful thing? When there are so many divrei Torah to the contrary? We can say Hashem understands we can't do it, and allows for it, but not that we don't need it entirely. That's part of what triggered me to post.