neshama carlebach | Imamother

happyduck

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:24 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

Disagree!!!!

talk and inspiration that do not lead to action are pretty much worthless.

What good are zemiros sand by mehalelim shabbos eating treif and thinking that they're very spiritual b/c they sing?

Pls note: I critisize only 1 selected behavior, not the entire Carlebach fan population)

Good nithg, shall cont. tomorrow!! Wink

No one is saying it is okay to do all those things becuase they sing. All I menat was that it is possible for one ot come from the other. And we have no idea under whom Carlebach was working and to whom he was addressing his shaylas. Just becuase it was not someone we know, does not mean he was not doing so.

There is no question that one must follow the mitzvos as well as "feeling spiritual".

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:20 am

Quote:

All I menat was that it is possible for one ot come from the other.

you got me thorougly confused.
could you pls explain in more detail?

Quote:

And we have no idea under whom Carlebach was working and to whom he was addressing his shaylas.

I really would like to find out!!!

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:37 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

Quote:

All I menat was that it is possible for one ot come from the other.

you got me thorougly confused.
could you pls explain in more detail?

Why is this confusing to you? We have the concept in many places something that is not done with the right intentions maycome to be for the right intentions. We also know that from tiny seeds grow great trees. One mitzvah leads to another. bY recognizing the greatness of HASHEM, even in a tiny way, they may come to see more. Why are you confuced that from one small thing something much greater can grow?

Quote:

And we have no idea under whom Carlebach was working and to whom he was addressing his shaylas.

I really would like to find out!!![/quote]

But truthfully it is none of our business! I do not need to tell you to whom I adressed shaylas pertaining to my vocation. All I need to know is that I am asking them to someone who I trust.

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:47 am

Quote:

happyduck, now youve got me confused too! Smile

and why is it none of our business? whenever we want to find out if somethings "kosher kehalacha" we always know who is giving the haskama or hechsher- in restaurants, in sefarim,... how do we know otherwise that we can trust it? we should just say "oh, the storeowner is Jewish so he must have found out that the food he sells is kosher" or "the book was written by a Jew so it must be ok to read" ????

we dont trust anyone just based on the fact that he/she is a Jew and probably consulted a Rav, especially when we think theres something strange going on, we want to know which Rav said what...

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:56 am

I still have no idea what is confusing people. So all they have right now is that they "feel spiritual". Isn;t that in some way better than a yid who does not know they are Jewish at all? Or worse yet who wants no connection?

And as for it being none of our business. I say it again. We see a hechsher I nthe store, We know it to be a good hechsher. Do we call the hechshering company and ask minute detailed questions about how they checked the store? No. We assume they, being a recognized agency have done their homework.

On a personal level. I have spoken to a rav regaurding certain business issues I have in my line of work. We have worked out what is right for me. IT might look strange to some people when they see it, and have many a time been asked about it by frum JEwish who see me (Why did you do x,y,z? Really you asked a rav? Who did you ask?) and my answer is always the same. I asked someone I trust with my neshama. I got an answer from him. Why do you need to know who it is?

If you do not like what I am doing, ask your own shaila!

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:58 am

I forgot to mention the interesting phenomenon I have found on this board. It seems people mysteriously get confused when they do not agree! How wonderful it would be to bottle this feature and sell it!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:58 am

Quote:

omething that is not done with the right intentions maycome to be for the right intentions.

oh, gotcha!
I couldn't figure out what you're reffering to
thnks

Quote:

And we have no idea under whom Carlebach was working and to whom he was addressing his shaylas.

But truthfully it is none of our business! I do not need to tell you to whom I adressed shaylas pertaining to my vocation. All I need to know is that I am asking them to someone who I trust.

As an individual, it is your business whom to ask.
A public figure looses the right to some of his privacy, b/c his actions affect many people. If somebody tells me they got a rishus (permission) to transgress sertain halachos in public, I have a right to know who gave the rishus.

(Disclaimer: the above is a general statement; I do not imply that Shlomo Carlebach transgressed anything)

By the way, deOraisa only relations are asur,
deRabanan - endeering touch is asur.
Negia as we observe it is a humra, ecepted by the Jews

so maby Shlomo Carlebach was given a heter to observe negia pureely deRabannan.

Pearl

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:06 am

happyduck: "Isn;t that in some way better than a yid who does not know they are Jewish at all? Or worse yet who wants no connection?"

I am with you on that one. I am related to a Carlebachnickit, and, though I am not "with" her on this, I am sure glad she is where and who she is now, compared to where and what she was before.......
I have been in the Carlebach moshav, and again, not my cup of tea, but some good is done there as well...

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:10 am

Quote:

I still have no idea what is confusing people.

This:

Quote:

FY:I have an impression tath there are 2 carlebch movements- frum and not frum.
HappyD: I think it is all one and the same... just different aspects of the whole.

this is confusing b/c observing mizvos & singing for the sake of singing are VERY different, so I don't see how they're the same

and this:

Quote:

But I still think that they are just flip sides of the same thing.

How can singing be a flip side of avoda?

Quote:

No one is saying it is okay to do all those things becuase they sing. All I menat was that it is possible for one ot come from the other.

Which one? From which other??

Quote:

something that is not done with the right intentions maycome to be for the right intentions

but now I understand what you ment!!!

Bottom line is that we aren't really arguing here, we just stress different points.

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:14 am

happyduck- do you trust every hechsher in the store? there are many hechsherim people dont buy because they dont trust it. it doesnt mean that the hechsher wasnt given by a Rav, though. the question is whether or not everyone goes by that Rav. so yes, we need to know who the Rav is in order to know if we go by him or not.

Quote:

So all they have right now is that they "feel spiritual".

thank you for explaining, I had no idea this is what you meant by "right intentions."

Quote:

forgot to mention the interesting phenomenon I have found on this board. It seems people mysteriously get confused when they do not agree! How wonderful it would be to bottle this feature and sell it!

I dont think this is fair of you to say. can you bring other examples from this board to prove your point?

zuncompany

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:20 am

I find this whole thread chutzpadick and disgusting. If you don't like them don't listen. If you do, than fine. You don't know them, you don't know what has been paskined to them. It isn't your buisness. When I was finishing college I was paskined that I could shake my professers hands if and only if they put their hand out first. Now, to some it might have looked weird, but I would have found it chutzpadick for someone to come and ask me what Rov paskined it. Everyone knew me on campus of the Jewish students. I was at the time the only frum person on my campus and did a lot of work for the shluchim. I was learning with the students, doing shluchus work, etc... I wasn't someone people didn't know. I still did not think it was any of their beeswax who gave me the heter. There is a lot of judging going on here... its not our place to judge!

Sara

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:21 am

about feeling spiritual- I have never heard of anywhere that this is part of Torah. where does it say "thou shalt feel spiritual and feel holy?" I dont even know where this comes from except the fact that there are people who like to "float" and think that is their spiritual connection to Hashem. and when feeling spiritual means you make up your own rules for Torah and mitzvos because you feel you are better attached to Hashem that way, there is no arguing that that has no place in Yiddishkeit.

Hashem gave us concrete mitzvos to attach ourselves to Him, why we would need to "feel spiritual" in order to attach to Hashem, is beyond me.

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:23 am

RG wrote:

about feeling spiritual- I have never heard of anywhere that this is part of Torah. where does it say "thou shalt feel spiritual and feel holy?"

Kedoshim Teheyu

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:25 am

RG wrote:

as FY said: once you become a public figure, you have to start handing out your credentials.... people want to know who said what for who.

Ok, my 11 month old wants to stick her hand in a socket. Should I give in to her curiosity?

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:25 am

kdoshim tihiyu? how does that say "feel spiritual" ?

and happyduck- if I may play the same game you are, this is the second time in this thread you didnt hear what you liked, and said "lashan hara!"

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:27 am

Quote:

Ok, my 11 month old wants to stick her hand in a socket. Should I give in to her curiosity?

this has nothing to do with curiousity!
that example has nothing to do with anything.

happyduck

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:27 am

How do you figure? I said I will not talk about people or give specific examples from people. It had nothing to do with not hearing what I like! I have been solely addressing the hows and whats. Not the whos and whys.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 11:29 am

Quote:

I find this whole thread chutzpadick and disgusting

I don't think so.

But I do think that it's rather confusing and becoming personal b/c we're discussing many things (and people) in 1 shot:

1. well, the Carlebachs

2. the laws of Negia

3. the laws of Kol Isha

4. liniencies in kiruv

and the new one:
5. Public figures in halacha

It is hard to separate the issues when all is jubled in 1 thread.