S/O chesed and $ | Imamother

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 2:17 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

I'm sorry you feel resentful about giving tzedakah. When I started to feel like a victim to my circumstances is when I made a plan to become more financially comfortable so that I didn't have to go around resenting everyone and watching what everyone else is buying/ doing.

Also pretty sure no one from my community is knocking on your door. The community I live in is full of hardworking people. Many are on Medicaid and or receive food from local food drive and various organizations. I'm glad to sustain those organizations when I can. I feel privileged to give tzedakah when I can. And when I can't I cant.

Raisin

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 2:29 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am a BT. I apologize in advance, don't mean to offend anyone and wish that everyone who is in need of $ shall receive it soon.

BUT .....We have a lot of chesed organizations, we all donate money. I live in a reasonably large OOT community and we have at least 50 diff gemachs, moving boxes, baby items, chairs for simcha, etc. There are chesed organizations that help wtih food, rent, funds for weddings, funds to set up an apt, wigs, infertility, etc and etc.

This is amazing, but this type of "help" doesnt really exist in the non frum world, and yet somehow they manage. Yes, there are charities, my work collects school supplies in August and toys in November for xmas for underprivileged kids. After college, I attended my share of backyard weddings, where the bride wore a $50 dress from TJMaxx, they served desserts/cheap take out from the local grocery store, and they had no one to buy them linens and things. Yet, somehow they all managed. I understand there are special cases, illiness, etc, but I was raised with a simple notion that if you cant afford it, you make without.

The way things are in the frum world bother me and I cant reconsile it in my head. Secular people who cant afford nice things, somehow manage to do without. Yet, in our communities, for some unknown to me reason I detect this unhealthy obsession (entitlement?) with things (see the recent thread about what things to buy for overnight camp). I dont understand where it is coming from, and what can we do to really provide help to those who need and discourage the materialistc notions. Any ideas as what causes this and how to raise my kids without, it would be appreaciated. Thanks ladies.

I agree with you about simple weddings and wish that was more socially acceptable. On the flip side, I think many secular or non Jewish people have way fancier weddings then any frum one I have been to. Eg destination weddings, bachelor or bachelorette parties where guests are expected to spend $100s of their own money, etc.

I think gemachs that lend things out are very nice. I am on a local non Jewish moms groups and people are always asking if someone can pass on moving boxes and so on. And it is so wasteful to buy a one off item eg a cot for your grandchild, when you could borrow it instead. A lot of that stuff happend via the internet in more modern or secular communities...people use freecycle sites and cragslist to pass on baby equipment. In very frum communities people don't use the internet so old fashioned gemachs still have thier place.

dancingqueen

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 2:36 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe you need to be from a BT background to appreciate what you are saying because I completely agree and understand. I was always taught that being frugal and living below your means were jewish values. But that doesn’t seem to be true for much of the frum world. It seems to be more of a “if you got it flaunt it” attitude when it comes to materialism plus a socialist idea that everyone should live the same exact way.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:03 pm

Op, I'm ffb and completely agree with you. The only need is Jewish school bec. We want to impart our values. But, the way the materialism is emphasized and ppl spend as if its a need like weddings can be made cheaper in a shul on a smaller scale. But, no, those who can't afford it wont do it bec. Of peer pressure. Why?

Why do I feel so much peer pressure as a frum woman?? This is wat I hate about being in a frun community. I work with non jews. A lot of them move to far away communities with good public schools. But, they have long commutes. And, while they may not be paying for private schools.....the reality is I feel more emphasis/pressure of materialism like dress/hair/makeup....among frum women than among my professional colleagues. Tznius clothes may cost more, but its possible to get it cheaper in non jewish stores and add """ shells or.....

But, yes, it's scary how the frum world is becoming all about materialism and I was taught its opposite of torah values. If ppl would spend as much time improving middle as they spend coordinating outfits...there would be less judgement on those not "up to par" bec some
Of us are trying to live within our means.

Regarding weddings, some non jews spend a lot on their weddings, but its usually the older bride and groom paying for their own wedding and they spend a lot of time saving up. But, a lot of non jews do it simpler. Anyway, I posted on this site about how I wanted to spend less on my simcha. Ppl said I'm ruining my child bec they'll feel different......

So I feel I can't win. I'm considered "bad" if I do smaller simcha bec I need save money for kids braces....but then if I would need rent money if I spend too much on a sumcha (like in other thread) nobody is bailing me out. Since I'm responsible for my bills, why is it bad to make smaller (yes different) simcha? Kids shld see we have different amounts to spend so dont compare!!!!

Its interesting that on the thread of the woman asking for her rent to be paid for a bigger apt, ppl said to her that she can't expect ppl to pay her rent regularly. But, here ppl are saying we shouldn't judge poor ppl and we should help them according to wat they are used to, even extravagance. So, two opposing views!!

Op, I agree with you. Yes, kosher food and Jewish schools cost more. But, shabbos/yom tov is not different from non jews eating meat or chicken during week....and I HATE THE EMPHASIS OF MATERIALISM/EXTRAVAGANCE IN FRUM WORLD!! THE SAD THING IS ALONG WITH EMPHASIS ON MATERIALISM COMES JUDGEMENT/labeling others as weird just bec they are trying to live within means.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:15 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

im also ffb grew up mainstream bais yaakov in flatbush.

as much as I try not to judge- everyone has different needs and expectations- I have to admit I do relate to a lot of what you and op expressed.

I dont think the bolded is so contradictory actually. I try my hardest not to ever judge individuals and their choices. at the same time- as a COMMUNITY- we got to admit our standards are out of hand

and I hate to say this- though yes- the more to the right a community is - the more materialistic it is ( as a whole -of course there are plenty of exceptions)

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:16 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Can I just add a side rant saying I don't understand all the people who keep saying tznius clothing costs more. I have not bought a single article of clothing from any Jewish business since I was in 9th grade. I am very tall and above average size and not a single thing in any frum store is tznius on me. All my clothing comes from normal mall stores on sale, which is ironically the ONLY way I can dress myself in a tznius manner. I can't understand the need for overpriced made in China garbage that is considered more "tznius" just because it's marketed towards frum women.

Yep

Raisin

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:21 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Can I just add a side rant saying I don't understand all the people who keep saying tznius clothing costs more. I have not bought a single article of clothing from any Jewish business since I was in 9th grade. I am very tall and above average size and not a single thing in any frum store is tznius on me. All my clothing comes from normal mall stores on sale, which is ironically the ONLY way I can dress myself in a tznius manner. I can't understand the need for teeny tiny overpriced made in China garbage that is considered more "tznius" just because it's marketed towards frum women.

I agree 100% with you for adult women clothing. I have no problem finding clothing for myself in non Jewish shops, especially as frum shops think all Jewish women are under 5 feet tall and less then a size 12.

But its almost impossible to find skirts for little girls. Just ordering some skirts online from a frum shop. We scoured the mall yesterday and we found a few tshirts, hoodies, tights, socks etc but no 10 year old girls in the secular world wear skirts past their knees.

But still, to be fair I found a shop selling skirts for less then $10. Its not the biggest expense I've had this year.

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:21 pm

Making smaller more modest weddings is a difficult topic, since there are two families, each with their own expectations. As for many of the other high ticket items in the frum community, there is unfortunately a lot of pressure to "keep up with the Kleins". Telling our children that they may not have any of the things that their friends take for granted causes all sorts of problems.

I used to wonder at the number of clearly lower income families that have fancy strollers, until I spoke with someone who runs a baby equipment gmach. She lives near a very high income area, where for each child a family would buy several expensive strollers (a large carriage, a more compact one to keep in the car, and a nice stroller for a toddler - at the very least!) and give them all to the gmach when that child no longer needed it. Many other fancy things that people have are also loans, or second hand. Matching clothes are often bought on sale.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 3:24 pm

Raisin wrote:

Excellent points! I had to find a black skirt for DD's 1st grade graduation and I scoured every store known to man until I found one in the thrift shop LOL. I was not about to spent $50 for a black cotton skirt for a 6 year old in a frum store.

Raisin

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 4:00 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Ok, I guess frum shops in Europe are way cheaper. I spent about $10 each on some straight black skirts, and about $25 for flared skirts in a couple of different colours. I've never seen weekday skirts for $50 even in New York. Those fancy matching shabbos outfits, yes. (bh I can usually find tznius shabbos dresses from non Jewish shops) But not weekday skirts. And I am limited because I am buying online. If I was going to the shops in person, I can get for even less.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 4:42 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

Why do you think that is? There's a mass hypnosis and preoccupation with having the latest and greatest.

I grew up FFB in a modern community, and there was not this preoccupation of labeling people based on what they are wearing.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 9:33 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

I agree very strongly with the bolded- I unfortunately learned that the heard way (when I was a kallah) and I hope no one else should.

Yes, its true. But, if the "other side" feels the pressure to have an expensive wedding, then they shoukd pay!! My inlaws made some demands on my parents and guess what?? My parents are still paying now yrs later....I cant put myself under that stress...

So, if in general it becomes more accepted to make smaller cheaper weddings, then either the "other side" will not feel the pressure to make a huge wedding or they should pay the extra fees . If the girls family is paying for the hall and caterer it makes sense they should be able to do it cheaper!!! In the secular world, its not one side paying, thats ridiculous...and rabbis say "keep the peace" but why should I be stressed (which actually causes physical problems) to figure out how to pay bec someone else is telling me how to spend my money???

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 9:43 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

.............
..
and I hate to say this- though yes- the more to the right a community is - the more materialistic it is ( as a whole -of course there are plenty of exceptions)

But this is what bothers me a lot. Growing up oot, I didnt feel the materialistic pressure that I feel now in my neighborhood. But, I always had this preconceived notion that the more right the community, the simpler theyll be with less emphasis on materialism. But, I was shocked when I got older and saw that I was wrong. I thought more focus on torah means more focus on more important things than materialism.....I think the issue is automatically with more materialism, one can forget to have good middos to be nice to everyone even ppl who dont dress as well or dont have......

Its shocking how much pressure there is and how many "luxeries" are considered "needs" to "fit in" or for shidduchim....I feel like its just getting worse...

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 9:58 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

ITA it's not the little girls looking for cool status stuff, it's their moms, and that is messed up. Their moms are transmitting to them that their worth is their popularity based on their cool stuff. What happened to the value of middos?

And this is the most shallow thinking there is. Why bother pretending you have Torah values. The ones that practice Judiasm like this are hypocrites. They worship the ol mighty dollar.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 10:04 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

This is a genuine question, as I'm not exposed to all types of communities:

In my community (very RW yeshivish) a takanah wedding costs around $10,000 (both sides included). I'm seeing prices here on imamother starting at $30,000 going up to $100,000? I know it's not in my community, so I was assuming it's in more JPF or MO communities?

Shaitels. No-one I know owns a high end shaitel - yet I see prices here that I've never encountered IRL? If it's not my crowd buying them, then Who?

Hotels. Nobody I know ever goes to hotels. Yet I know from the fact that these programs are often sold out, and from the conversation here on imamother, that there are entire communities where everyone goes. So which community do these families belong to?

Vacations. I personally don't know too many families who have ever been on a plane, yet I hear that Florida and other parts of the United States are packed with frum people (And no, they don't live nearby). It's not the RW world, so who are these people?

I keep hearing here on imamother that the RW world is more into gashmiyus, so I'm confused. In what way do you see that?

I really want to know.