Consumerism is destroying the Jewish community from within

mompower

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 2:43 pm

contextual wrote:

Stop blaming the magazines.
Stop blaming in-town people.
It's time to take responsibility for ourselves.
Look at our own spending, are we living a life in tune with our long-term goals?
Are we even enjoying the things we have?
It's not up to anyone but EACH OF US.

I can’t like this post enough.

So much blame everywhere when the blame rests soley on each of our shoulders.

↑ chanatron1000 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 2:49 pm

amother Ultramarine wrote:

Not only. You used to be able to easily find a fresh baby stretchie in a local discount store for 18$ now it starts at 24$. It’s a small difference.

But for teens the jump was huge! Buying a teen a yt outfit shouldn’t be a luxury. What used to costs 85 now costs 120.

A lot of that is due to inflation and rising overhead costs for local businesses. It's been pretty bad lately.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 2:58 pm

amother Ultramarine wrote:

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why do you need to buy a strechie for $18 in the first place? But from carters or children’s place. I get the gerber 8 pack or whatever of onesies from target or online. I refuse to spend so much money on something, especially when it will be used for such a short time.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:00 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

Can we agree to differentiate between items that ease the burden of a mother of a large family, vs the need for items like designer clothing, jewellery, etc. Those are not anywhere on the same level.

(Speaking as mother and homeowner with 2 dishwashers, 2 ovens, 2 washer dryers pesach kitchen 🙄 but would never spend on designer clothes shoes etc and haven’t bought a piece of jewellery in years... we brought along our old outdated furniture to our new home but yes I have those modern conveniences that I don’t think put me on a level of materialistic)

We can, as long as you understand that, while certainly making your life easier, none of those things are necessities. And as long as you have those things because you can afford them and because YOU want them, not because other people have them and you need to have them too.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:03 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

buying from Jewish stores doesnt make you materialistic.

Who said anything about materialistic? What is the difference between the strechies from the Jewish stores and the strechies from target or children’s place? It’s not the quality, I can tell you that. I was not able to pass along most of what I was gifted, but I was able to pass along most of what I bough from carters on Amazon.

amother

↑ Ultramarine

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:23 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Personally I do find the quality better. But either way I was contrasting to the teens, for whom buying in target isn’t an option ( I actually do find some nice things there, hm etc. but they still need some outfits from the Jewish store for yt)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:32 pm

contextual wrote:

In theory 100% true, but in practice it’s a lot more complicated. As a parent whose kids are very much in tune with us and not at all into materialism there is still a reality that you ignore at your own peril. As your kids get older there is only so much you can differentiate them from the pervasive materialism that is ubiquitous among their friends and classmates.

It is unfair to a girl in Shidduchim to insist she wear a cheap department store winter coat rather than the $350 one everyone else her age is wearing. When the entire shiur in Mesivta is going skiing on winter vacation you can insist your child stay home but there are real social repercussions for him. Your child’s Mesivta will often insist that boys go to sleep away camp with all the high standards that are in even the most basic camp out there. Etc. There are many areas where knockoffs and low priced alternatives will work. But not always.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:39 pm

amother Ultramarine wrote:

They don’t NEED, and certainly not SOME. They WANT because that’s what everyone else does.
Many many many people (kids, teens, men, and women) do just fine without ever going to Jewish stores.

amother

Caramel

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

The daughter in shidduchim is presumably working, so why can't she purchase a coat on her own? If she needs to fit her purchases into a budget, it's good training for "real life."

Yes, it's ok to do cheaper family vacations. There are ways to have fun and go away that don't involve skiing or other extra stuff.

For friend/non family trips, nothing wrong with expecting teen boys or girls to find ways to earn money to cover at least part of the trip.

(None of the mesivtas that I know of insist the boys go to any sort of camp at all, so I guess that is community dependent. But often boys in my circles will use bar mitzvah money to go or wait till they can get a job at a camp.)

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:45 pm

amother OP wrote:

If a guy won’t even go out with my daughter because she’s not wearing the right coat, he’s not the guy for her. Even in my children’s MO schools, there is nothing that EVERYONE does, although the kids might think it’s that way. I have never heard of a Yeshiva that insists on their students going to a certain camp. Certain TYPES of camps maybe, but never certain camps, and certainly not expensive ones.
You are sitting here bemoaning consumerism and gashmius, and yet you are defending it at the same time. People need to not be scared to be the first one to say “this is not ok, I’m not doing it.” Be the change you want to see.

lostmyoldSN ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:56 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Life is simpler here but there is another attitude here it least in the chareidi yeshivish circle.
DH, Israeli born moved to the US for 22 years. He describes the difference if attitude as follows:
In Israel being chareidi is being poor. That's the *default* and it's not a shame. The whole community don't put emphasize on materialism, Torah and Torah life is The number one thing.
In the US: If you cant afford XYZ you are a nebach and you need to be ashamed of yourself. Being poor is shameful.
Baruch HaShem DH didn't change his attitude and drove his junky car and held his head high Smile

I don't completely agree. I think it's not nearly at the level that it is in America here, but it's creeping up.

Even Charedim have standards that are rising. Owning a car. Having a nice apartment. Nice furniture. Matching clothes for kids (and no that can't be done super cheaply because new sets need to be bought each season for everyone to match).

We have less of it in comparison, but it is creeping up on us.

amother

↑ Apricot ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

I think there always was peer pressure. There defiantly was when I was a kid.
Just back in the day, when people where less worried about there kids going OTD - they where more comfortable saying no. It was also socially acceptable for teens to work and make there own money to make up the gap between the things that there parents thought they needed and what they think they needed.

The issue is - because as a society we have move to this form of "parents provide everything" - there are real repercussions emotionally to raising kids in 2024 with the financial sensibilities of the 80's and 90's.
When everyone's ( and I actually mean everyone - not the 3 rich kids in the class kind of everyone) parents are providing something, no matter the financial space they are in - not providing that thing can be felt as a form of neglect - even if the thing theoretically a luxury - like summer camp (once a luxury - now a necessity).

My solution was moving to Israel - but as a society I think the solution will come as people start breaking from the financial pressure and are forced to make painful changes.
This low key happened in 2008 - and I think it will be a much more painful in the coming years.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:13 pm

lostmyoldSN wrote:

Yes it's creeping up on us. Car is sometimes through the woman's work and is seen matching clothes more and more even on a weekday.

↑ lostmyoldSN ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:15 pm

amother Apricot wrote:

This won't solve your problems unless you are newlyweds or your children are super young and you are brave enough to live in a place without Anglos and with a poorer Israeli demographic.

If you live in the regular Anglo bubbles, you're going to be dealing with a lot of the same things with even more pressure because you just uprooted your kids.

Not saying don't make aliya. I just don't think this is a good reason.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:16 pm

lostmyoldSN wrote:

Still there is a staunch group of chareidim in Israel who frown on materialism and always have the Torah and the limud Torah a their first priority.

↑ lostmyoldSN ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:22 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Yes it's creeping up on us. Car is sometimes through the woman's work and is seen matching clothes more and more even on a weekday.

Yes, there are ways that the financials may work out. But it overall raises the bar for all of us. Where I live, it's more a less a given to have a car. I don't have one and often feel nebach (even though I'm sure my bank account is happy).

I have a friend who has done a lot of matching and she gets a lot of her sets as handmedowns. (Or at least she used to. Her girls have gotten older.)

However, I don't know that and you don't know that. And most people don't know someone for handmedowns with exactly the right sizes to match 4 girls.

Bottom line is that even if these things can be done frugally, they up the standards. And where I live is perfectly livable without a car. It's just a lot less convenient.

Last edited by lostmyoldSN on Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ lostmyoldSN ↓

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 4:26 pm

small bean wrote:

I'm sorry I'm not buying $350 coat, even though I can because it's p-athetic.my Hugh school daughters coats were about $30 each and they are warm BH.

I'm a mix of I buy what we want and live simply. Meaning I don't s-kimp but I don't buy because everyone has. My kids have lots of friends and they don't have brand names. We drive old cars and don't live in a fancy house.

I think most people have their things they spend on. For me, it's household help, convenient food and therapies.