How to deal with inflexible/stubborn child?

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 1:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

so WHAT is the better way to deal with him in these situations? I agree with you and like I said several times, I try to parent positively as much as I can, but what is the better way in those very few situations where nothing else works? I keep trying to pin you down on this part, but I'm not getting a direct answer.

OP my point and answer to you was to your original post before the incident of the car. My point was to NOT make and give consequences that serve no purpose that you knew wouldn’t work to begin with (as per your original post). You’re asking me about the car but that only became an issue because you chose to disregard my first piece of advice of not implementing such consequences in the first place. Once that occurred try to de-escalate instead of keeping provoking. He went to clean up but you insisted he do ALL of it. That is inviting more power struggles. Do you want him to learn to fix his mistakes or “punish “ him for attempting to punish you? If he went to fix his mistake and clean what he could that should be acknowledged, celebrated and praised. Standing on your principles of it has to be 100% clean before you get your scooter when it’s an overwhelming job isn’t fair or practical for him to manage. Of course he feels you’re trying to punish him and” get him” and wants an apology. By the way what is wrong with apologizing to your child? I do it all the time. It’s EXTREMELY important.
OP I can’t give you practical advice on things that you invited on yourself. I responded to your initial post which was , do not give consequences . Especially if you know that they don’t work . Your initial post was about getting your son to wash himself and stop thinking about a saw. Because you were unsuccessful in getting himself to wash up , it became a 2 day affair of behaviors (the car, your room….) all because he didn’t wash in a timely manner. Does that seem logical? Who is being rigid? Your son taking his time in the bath or you believing he needs a consequence for that and a consequence of needing to clean up your whole room and on and on?
I am answering you , you’re just not hearing me. My very clear advice is as follows
1) Do NOT give consequences- they clearly don’t work. Try going with the child taking his lead. He’s thinking about a saw, use that and tell him “why don’t you think about everything you can do with a saw while your washing yourself and when you come out we will have a snack and discuss it” . Why punish him for thinking about a saw ?
2) If you did resort to giving a consequence don’t be rigid in it. Acknowledge any attempt he makes at repair (like first attempt at cleaning your room) acknowledge it and move past it. De-escalate do not provoke.
3)Take a deep look at yourself and your anxieties
4) don’t be hard or judgmental on yourself nor feel guilty. Learn to have compassion for yourself , you’re trying your best and learning. It’s a journey.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 2:06 pm

amother Steelblue wrote:

The child was harming himself by not going to bed until 11:30 at night.

Of course it's logical. If he can't stick to the basics of daily life like a schedule, he doesn't have time for extras. If a child goes to bed so late at night, he'll be tired the next day and needs to save his energy for essential activities.

Steelblue- your seem to be very triggered and defensive and hold a lot of anxiety around this topic . This response is irrational and shows more about the stress and anxiety you hold on this topic then being able to have a rational discussion so I will just say your arguments until this point have been about a child being dangerous to the extent it may require Hatzalah intervention and now you are saying going to bed at 11:30pm is akin to self-harm. This is something that clearly triggers you. You are much more defensive and argumentative than OP that is open to considering the constructive advice being offered to her. This is her thread so please don’t respond for her as she clearly wants to learn and do better. This is clearly a difficult triggering thread for you and is causing you to respond in illogical comments. This past post of yours isn’t something I will even respond to the points you make as they are not rational points. It is an illustration of the anxiety and pain you hold. I am so sorry for you as I have experienced the pain, frustration and lack of clarity you seem to be experiencing. I hope you are able to come back to this thread and read it at a time that you are more open and can hear and consider other perspectives. If you believe we are wrong I respect that. Wishing you lots of love, hatzlacha , and success on your journey.

amother

Steelblue

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 2:12 pm

amother Seafoam wrote:

I'm sorry, but your response is condescending. I'm not sure what I did to cause you to speak in such a way, or who made you the owner of this thread. But the fact is that unfortunately, too many people complicate unnecessarily the boundaries aspect of parenting, leading to confused uncontrolled kids. It's time we got our heads on straight without all the wishy washy weakness these kids sense and home in on.

I get why a parent would want to do things the easy way, and setting boundaries with kids like this is far far far from easy. Much easier to just label the child as incapable and give in. But the benefits of being consistent pay off big time in the long run.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 4:05 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Respectfully disagree.

For thousands of years parents knew how to control children.

Even animals can be trained.

You are right that only adults understand the logic of parental rules.

But a child who cannot handle a parental NO
Will grow up like a wild animal,ch"v.

Best Bubby you are correct animals can be trained through reward and punishment. When used on humans this method is known as ABA. However animals don’t know how to think and are unable to apply one area they maybe trained in to a different area. It is strictly act upon command. I don’t want my kids to grow up like animals and respond and react based on their training without the skills and ability to determine what is needed in each situation they find themselves in as an adult (as that is a real recipe for disaster!). I am advocating and working on developing and helping children acquire the necessary skills that develop the ability for self -control that comes from an internal skill. The ability to survey a situation and respond appropriately from their internal compass as opposed to responding to reward and punishment. Reward and punishment don’t result in clear thinking and self-control it results in fear. I assume that is why so many kids my sons age (that seem to be able to handle a no) are vaping . I’m guessing they weren’t trained in that and weren’t given the skills necessary that develop that kind of thought and self-control. They just learn to sneaking around and lie to their parents where my kids are very comfortable removing themselves from those kids and are adamant they don’t want to vape. Not because they are scared of the consequences, I did not know it was occurring at such ages (12yrs old) my kids told me because it bothered them their friends were doing such harmful things because they are developing an internal compass and skills as opposed to being trained .

amother

Seafoam

Sat, Jul 15 2023, 11:02 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Seafoam, we need to do both.

We need to explain to kids why the rules are necessary, but the child must comply even if they don't understand.

You can explain to a 2 year old that running into the street is very dangerous,

But sometimes it is only a potch that they understand, their sense develops later.

So do explain the reason for the rules.

But the kids have to comply whether they understand or not.

As you wrote, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until mid 20s.

Yes your point was one I wanted to make. You keep saying a child has to be able to accept a “no” as if my kids and those that advocate for my method can’t. That’s obviously not the case or they would be dead, in a burn unit or not frum. Obviously every parent here prevents their toddlers from running in the street, playing with dangerous items, being mechalel shabbos and so on. You don’t realize how many nos they have to adhere to constantly. Do they really need a consequence for taking longer in the bath?
And yes Best Bubby I agree the way I know when to let my child cross the street themselves is when they have shown fear of crossing. As ironic as it sounds that’s the truth as it shows they understand the dangers involved so they are then mature enough to learn how to cross in a safe manner. Yes both are needed and I believe every parent here has their absolute NOs that are non negotiable. I’m talking about the more grey areas

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 12:55 am

amother OP wrote:

This seems to be the root of the whole escalation. DH had a talk with him last night and was able to get him to understand and agree that children cannot take revenge on parents no matter how upset they are and that he needs to do teshuva by apologizing and cleaning up, but he kept insisting that "Mommy needs to do teshuva first for yelling at me". We tried explaining that parents' job is to keep children safe and even though Mommy tries very hard to almost never yell, because it was a dangerous situation, I had no choice. He still couldn't move past that thought though of me needing to do teshuva. In general, this is a big issue for him. Any type of authority that he perceives as "being mean" or "not liking him", he immediately shuts down to and refuses to comply with at all (big issue in school).

Anyways, to make a long story short we went on a long walk and talked about all the exciting things we're going to do this summer and cuddled at bedtime and in the morning when I offered again to help him clean up, he happily did.

Going back to my most recent post though and my question for seafoam (and anyone else who can offer insight!), after having established that I try my best to do positive parenting most of the time, and that for the long term, he will be starting therapy and will have an evaluation, in the meantime there are still situations in which I need him to cooperate and nothing seems to work. I see that consequences backfired this time (they have been effective at different times in the past depending on the situation, so maybe there is a better way of implementing them?) but then WHAT should I do in these situations? For example - 2 parts of this whole saga:

1. In the car, when he was in an escalation and pulling levers while I was trying to drive. No amount of distraction or attempts at positivity could make him stop. I could not physically remove him from the car. What choice did I have besides yell? (Not driving was not an option.)

2. With bedtime, this has been an ongoing issue that we had attempted collaboration on (had a discussion and agreed on a bedtime), offered incentives for (reward chart), given plenty of leeway on, provided structure and routine for, made it as enjoyable as possible (reading, cuddles, etc.) but still at the end of the day he refused to cooperate.

Wow OP I really have to commend both you and your husband. You both sound like amazing parents. Self-aware and gentle, patient and flexible, open to criticism and always seeking to improve.

For the car issue I don't think you could have done anything different. That he wants you to do teshuva underlines that he likely has an undetected diagnosis. If he is willing to listen to your DH have your DH emphasize to him that his job is not to make you do teshuva and that Hashem has not charged him with teaching you to do teshuva. Hashem has charged you and DH with teaching your son to live a Torah life and that includes derech eretz and kibud av v'eim which is one of the aseres hadibros.

Even though some posters said that you should have found a different solution for the driving issue, I don't think that's the real solution. A you could have been in the middle of the highway when he did this, or at a busy intersection; B there may not have been a neighbor who can watch him (even if there was maybe no neighbor is willing to watch this specific child); C sometimes kids like this are trying to get you to pull over and want their siblings to miss out, so pulling over even if it's possible is not a solution; D a solution that relies on others (neighbors) is not a realistic solution.

Bedtime is a different issue, I don't have a good solution off the top of my head. However what I do is count how long it takes the child to calm down. For instance if the child always takes 2.5 hours from walking in the door until ready to go to bed then I count backwards from the bedtime goal and try to make sure the child is home 2.5 hours before the target bedtime. That way if it takes 2.5 hours to calm down (mine reads a book lying in bed for an hour after getting home), and another hour to shower, then I'm not pressured for time because I expected it to take that long.
Also we had a similar issue but with a preteen refusing to shower for 3 days straight. I don't do anyone not my gender and over age 4-5. I warned that when DH gets home he will deal with it and he did, he took the child and brought him into the bathroom and turned on the water and said we can do this nicely or not nicely, do you want me to spray you clothed or do you want to get undressed and shower yourself? (If you spray someone clothed they want to undress, right? To get the wet clothes off.) This worked. I'm sure seafoam will disapprove.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 1:09 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

Turquoise I do NOT think your way is abusive. I said and will continue to say eventhough I know better, I myself resort to “your way “(or worse) many times, because I DO have a child like this! I really do and I do understand what you describe but I don’t agree with your outlook on ODD. I don’t want to get into a huge debate about the cause of ODD. I will just say there is no blood test to dx ODD it is a cluster of behaviors. ODD is also very common in kids with ADHD. There have been many studies that show ODD occurs when children , often those with ADHD are punished by adults for things that they have no control over (like impulsiveness ). The child therefore lose all respect for adults since the adults behave in a way that makes no sense. Would you trust and respect an authority figure that penalized you for breathing? Of course not! That’s how these kids feel. It’s not that there is a neurological block, that there is an inability to understand. It is because that the adults whose care they are in, have caused them to lose trust and respect in them. I think that’s the difference in our outlook. I just want to clarify . I didn’t mean to say bringing punishments equals abuse , but it can create a unsupportive spouse that thinks “too bad you have to do your job”. I live with a spouse like that (and want to divorce). He was raised in a house full of punishments and has zero understanding , compassion, or care for any of us that are having a hard time with something. It is a form of emotional abuse. Had he been raised with understanding, love , and support through his hardships we prob wouldn’t have such a difficult marriage or difficult children. Don’t scream at me but I have learnt after 2 decades of dealing with challenging children that the difficult/challenging child is often a symptom of a greater dysfunction within the family system. It’s the family system that needs repair, not necessarily the child. I know a huge factor in the dysfunction in my family system is because my husband was raised with no understanding , or support (and my responses to his inability for empathy have not been healthy either ). I’m mixing a lot of different things here but they are often all connected.
to clarify :
1)YES I have more challenging kids then you can possibly imagine with challenges that far exceeds what any of you have written
2) I do not think giving consequences are abusive (but I do think they are ineffective and can cause more harm to both mother and child )
3) eventhough I know a better way to deal with these children , I am talking to myself when I write these comments. I am FAR from perfect. I have many stressors and limited patience. I often do not respond in ways I am writing we should.
4) I do believe that we should be working in the way I suggest even if I mess up a lot , that is my goal and my journey

Who mentioned ODD? I don't think I mentioned that, why are you assuming that's what I'm talking about?

I have already said that I am familiar with and use the method of parenting you are describing, with one difference that in the 1% of situations OP is describing I don't use kid gloves and I do allow the child to experience consequences (like he will in the real world). BTW if you are so dysregulated and lacking skills that you do not pay taxes, does the IRS let you off? What if you are so dysregulated and having such a hard time that you lash out at someone and ransack someone's home or break objects that aren't yours? Do the police sit down and try to work with you to figure out what was hard for you and what skills you need to solve these problems?

What do you mean by "my way" (or worse)? Do you realize how disgusting and condescending this is?

If you don't think consequences or punishments are abuse then why did you write the equation you wrote in a previous post?

Why are you discussing diagnoses that were not discussed here? We told OP to get her child evaluated, I did not mention any specific diagnosis and I am amazed that you have not only decided which diagnoses I was thinking of but that you have even moved to criticizing how I propose dealing with those behaviors. So much assumption going on here.

It seems to me that your unsupportive spouse has colored your view of things. There is a happy middle ground between what you describe your spouse's childhood home as, and what you are describing - 100% unconditional support and 0% natural consequences or punishments, 100% helping the child figure out what he needs and what he feels and teaching him skills and 0% discussion of how his actions impact others and how they feel.

I agree with you that the family system often needs repair, lately I have come to realize that it's not necessarily that the child acts this way because of the broken family system, sometimes we mix the chicken and the egg and the child's behavior is what caused the family system to become unhealthy. But yes usually the family needs some repair in these situations.

1) Out of curiosity, are these children all your own or do you work with challenging children as a career? And what are the difficulties you are referring to?

2) We will agree to disagree, then. Not all consequences are ineffective or cause harm. Some do. Some don't. Sometimes it depends on the situation. Same as with everything else.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 1:10 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

If you are not going to respond then don't respond. There is no reason to be condescending and insulting towards other posters.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 1:25 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

OP was asking about a situation that had already happened, obviously she hadn't picked up the phone to consult you in real time before she even knew of your existence.

I also apologize to my kids all the time btw.

I agree with the suggestion that she can suggest he think about the saw while he takes his bath. I'm not sure it will work but there's no harm in suggesting it.

I think that your suggesting that she backtrack without clearly explaining why she is backtracking (a concrete reason - not "I was a meanie") is a recipe for disaster. It is likely to be seen as her giving in to his desire to "teach" her and "force" her to do teshuva.

Now seafoam, about this post:

amother Seafoam wrote:

Turquoise- before you get upset at my latest response please consider the fact that NOBODY was being harmed, NOBODY was in danger from OPs son thinking about his saw in the bath. The only “harm” that was occurring was OP not having her want’s fulfilled in the time she felt was adequate. Is that something that requires a consequence? The dangerous behaviors resulted from being given an unfair consequence to a negligible action. No child (or even me as an adult) can understand why they shouldn’t be able to go on their scooter (which most likely is a need for him to function well) because he was thinking about a saw in the bathtub. Of course he doesn’t understand it and will lose respect for authority if he is dealt with in this manner. Is it logical? Does it truly make sense ? He is most likely more perceptive, intelligent, and practical than you realize. He most likely doesn’t understand it because it doesn’t really make sense and therefore loses respect for the authority figure that is doing such things.

1. I don't appreciate that you assumed I'd get upset about your post. In fact I did not get upset and it took me four times reading the updates for me to even think that there might be something to respond other than regarding your condescending tone towards OP.

2. My main concern is not the bedtime issue but what happened when OP was driving. (Oh, OP, can you next time make sure he is strapped into the back seat, or if you have three rows, strapped into the very very back seat? He has lost the privilege of sitting in the front.) Seafoam, your suggestion for OP is not really practical. And she was justified in yelling during a dangerous - very dangerous - situation, yelling once in a few years. The problem is that because she yelled he feels a need to punish her and force her to do teshuva. That is the core issue and what needs to be focused on. Her yelling was not the issue here.

To me the bedtime issue is a pain, very annoying, but nothing so out of the ordinary. There is room here for trial and error. She can try one method for a few weeks and if it doesn't work she'll try something else. I don't see anything dangerous about the fact that he refuses to go to sleep on time. It's not healthy but neither is eating Bissli, neither is dangerous.

BTW OP's son can lose respect for authority if he so wishes but that does not mean he doesn't have to obey authority. I have very little respect for Putin, zero respect for Biden, and only resentment towards the Israeli Supreme Court. That does not matter, I am subject to the authority of all of them, even though Putin is not the authority in my country if I value my life I will not do anything to harm him. Even if I think Biden is senile if he makes a law I follow it. Even though the Israeli Supreme Court is corrupted if they issue a ruling it needs to be respected. This is something everyone must learn, that authority needs to be respected. If you remember the Rubashkin case, in large part he was made an example of because he was cheeky to the court. If you look in the news you will see what happens to certain people who decide to argue with and "stand up to" the police. If OP's son doesn't want to end up assassinated or behind bars he had better learn to respect what authority says even if he disrespects the authority as a person. And he had better learn not to do dangerous things or vandalism in the name of teaching others or preventing them from going about their day.
(Obviously we want children to love and respect their parents, not just obey them, but if we are discussing respect for authority in a general fashion then this needs to be pointed out.)

And again I have no issue with your bedtime post other than your condescending tone. Bedtime is not what concerns me here, it is just so low on the list of issues.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 3:21 am

amother Turquoise wrote:

I can’t continue this back and forth. I never meant for my posts to be condescending. I’m not sure why my admitting to have responded in much worse than giving consequences is something you find condescending. If it’s condescending it’s to myself not you. I really am sorry. I had no intention of being condescending so I’m not sure why it was taken that way. I’m not going to keep arguing. The only thing I will respond to is giving your description of not understanding the concept of authority the title of ODD. No you did not use that dx but you described it to a T. There is no other dx that I am aware of (I’m somewhat educated in the field) that is described that way other than ODD and why I chose to use the name as opposed to the description.
You’re completely ok in your beliefs. I’m not arguing them. Of course we all put our foot down and don’t allow our kids to do anything and everything they please. If we did, mine would be dead chas veshalom.
I’m not sure you realize we are on the same page. Just as you say bedtime isn’t the issue, that was my entire point. Why make such an issue and give consequences because a child took too long in the bath as he was preoccupied about a saw. That was my entire point in my post. The original behavior OP described of her son was not defiant. It most likely was not even intentional and so I suggested consequences aren’t the answer. Meeting him where his mind is at while redirecting , helping him focus on task at hand (even while being preoccupied about the saw)is the goal. Giving him those skills are what’s necessary. Consequences won’t help that issue. That is all I was saying.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 7:19 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

I am aware of another few diagnoses which also have this behavior as a symptom. I don't want to name them because I don't want to sound like I am diagnosing over the internet, but there is more than just ODD. I'm somewhat surprised that you jumped straight to that because I thought I was being far too transparent in my posts regarding which dx I was thinking of.

Thank you for the apology. It wasn't a specific sentence, it was the overall tone. I am sorry if I misunderstood/ misread you.

I didn't see OP's son's behavior as defiant per se. That didn't even cross my mind really. I think if I had been seeing it as defiant I would've sounded more like you in my advice, because if the core is simple defiance then you need to help the child climb down from the tree (in addition to teaching the child that defiance of authority doesn't work). But I don't think that's at the core of this.

I do think that in the driving case and how he took revenge on her, his behavior was quite intentional. In the bath case, I'm not so sure, it could go either way, but I figure OP knows her kid best and also knows what her family as a whole needs. Consequences here might be ineffective or counterproductive but abusive they are not, that's a strong word to use for a good parent like OP.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Jul 16 2023, 8:59 am

amother Turquoise wrote:

Never ever called OP abusive . I also never told her to backtrack. I’m not sure you’re understanding my comments. I believe OP understood my comments and with that I’m bowing out of with this thread.