neshama carlebach | Imamother

gryp

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 8:44 pm

of course I dont think restaurants and music is the same. the analogy came into my head because I have heard of movie rental stores where a Rav puts a hechsher on the movies.

I was just trying to point out that when you put yourself in the limelight, you have to make sure no one will suspect you of doing bad. its like the concept of maaris ayin- you cant rely on people to judge you favorably, and say, if they dont thats their problem. and maaris ayin applies to everyone, not just public figures.

yehudis

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:01 pm

RG wrote:

I was just trying to point out that when you put yourself in the limelight, you have to make sure no one will suspect you of doing bad.

Absolutely impossible. Ask anybody who is a public figure -- there are always people who criticize them. That's life.

I mean, just look at Chabad (didn't someone already bring that example)? They're different, and noticeable, so there are lots of people who think that they're doing something wrong.

Why is it a crime to be different?

Motek

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:09 pm

yehudis wrote:

They're different, and noticeable, so there are lots of people who think that they're doing something wrong.

being different and noticeable is not the issue here, but whether it appears as though someone is doing something halachically incorrect

and yes, decades ago, when Chabad first went out with candlesticks and tefillin, offering them to people on the street, and kiruv in general, some people claimed this was halachically problematic, but as in all things, as FY often reminds us, we are directed by our Torah authority, and the Rebbe explained why it was halachically acceptable

those for whom the Rebbe was not their authority, relied on their own rabbanim

wonder of wonders, those who disparaged those "halachically problematic" activities then, are doing the same thing themselves now ...

gryp

Wed, Jan 26 2005, 10:05 am

Quote:

They're different, and noticeable, so there are lots of people who think that they're doing something wrong.

different is not the same as wrong. shomer negiah and kol isha to any frum person is the halacha, and when these lines are crossed look wrong, not different!

Quote:

Chabad still has many controvercial aspects that look to many like going off the derech

Many controversial aspects that look like going off the derech? I think that is an exaggeration. also if Chabad does something different its not because we found a heter somewhere that allows for it.

sarahd

Wed, Jan 26 2005, 12:00 pm

I haven't read the entire thread, but if you will allow me to summarize:

Some people think someone is transgressing halacha by singing publically and live in front of men.

Others say she has a heter.

The first group want to know from which Rov; the second group say - none of your business.

The only person who needs to answer this question is the singer, and she hasn't been asked so we don't know if she would agree to tell.

So, neither the defenders nor the detractors know the whole story.

So what's the point of the whole discussion?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Jan 26 2005, 1:09 pm

Sarahd, I love your cold-headed logic!
(we miss yo a lot!!!)

Quote:

shomer negiah and kol isha to any frum person is the halacha, and when these lines are crossed look wrong, not different!

by the way, if people came down a bit & went back to some of my posts & red them more carefuly, they would have realized that 'the person(s) in question' might not be transgessing as much as we think and actually might be just relying on halacha w/out humros.

so either lets let them be & clos the topic

or

switch do discussion about negia/ kol isha in halacha

w/out NaMES

thanks for listening 8)

hadasa

Wed, Jan 26 2005, 2:38 pm

A few years ago there was an article about R" Shlomo Carlebach in the Kfar Chabad magazine. It didn't mention him by name, but it was pretty obvious who it was about.

The fact is, that R" Shlomo was once a Lubavitcher Chossid and had a strong connection with the Rebbe. But one day he came to the Rebbe and said something to the effect that he has discovered that the way to be Mekarev people to Yiddishkeit is to show them (both men and women) true Ahavas Yisroel without any limitations. When the Rebbe heard that, he became very serious and said something like, "If that is the case, then our ways will have to part" and since then there was no correspondence between them (that we know of). He never came back to the Rebbe.
(All this is based on my memory, so I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, but the gist is right.)

I have heard people speculating, why didn't the Rebbe tell him outright not to do it? Is it because he knew it wouldn't help, or because he knew there are people who will bot be reached any other way, so in a way the Rebbe was saying, "Do what you have to, but I cannot be associated with that."

Anyway, since none of us can read the Rebbe's thoughts, we have no way of knowing. I think we have to do what is demanded of us, and I, for one would never go or advise anyone to go to a concert where, to the best of my understanding, Halachah is being broken.
Nevertheless, I can judge other people Lekaf Zechus and assume that their intentions are truly for the sake of Heaven.

yehudis

Wed, Jan 26 2005, 8:00 pm

Just to help people judge favorably, here's a story. (Unfortunately, I don't remember the rabbi's name or where I read it.)

Right after the Holocaust, there was a rabbi in Europe who was raising money for the orphaned Jewish children that were placed in non-Jewish orphanages. I don't remember if he wanted to place them in a Jewish orphanage or in Jewish families, but either way, he needed a lot of money. So he came to a wealthy Jew and asked him for help, but the Jew said that at that time he couldn't give him as much as he needed. The rabbi pleaded with him that it was an emergency because the Jewish children were denied Jewish education. The wealthy man replied that he didn't see why it was the emergency, since the children were safe and taken care of. He said that to him, an emergency is a life-threatening situation, the kind where you can break Shabbos. The rabbi left. The next Shabbos, the wealthy man's phone kept ringing and ringing, and he decided to pick it up. That rabbi was on the other line. He said that he believed that spiritual state of Jewish children is just as important as their physical state and that it was enough of an emergency to justify using the phone on Shabbos. The man was convinced and gave him the money.

This rabbi felt that the fact that Jewish children weren't taught Torah was the kind of emergency where he could break Shabbos. Rabbi Carlebach was reaching out to those Jews who never learned Torah. And he wasn't even breaking Shabbos -- he was doing something that technically is not even derabbanan. As to why he needed to touch women -- here's another story.

Rabbi Carlebach was once giving a concert at a prison. After the concert, he spoke to each prisoner and hugged him. One of the prisoners asked him to give him another hug, which he did. The prisoner said, "If someone would have hugged me like that a few years ago, I would not be in prison right now." (This is from The Chicken Soup for the Jewish Soul, which I don't really like, but I like this story.)

Motek

Thu, Jan 27 2005, 1:53 pm

to add - R' Shlomo was actually a Lakewood bachur, and the reason he left Lkwood for Lubavitch he said, was because after the destruction of 6 million Yidden, he felt he had to DO something for Klal Yisrael and not just sit and shteig for himself.

He was an ilui, and his father was most unhappy by his leaving Lkwood.

Quote:

in a way the Rebbe was saying, "Do what you have to, but I cannot be associated with that."

nobody knows, as you said, but I personally (for whatever it's worth), like this approach to understanding R' Shlomo

I was told by someone who knew, that R' Shlomo still showed up for farbrengens occasionally (and by the way, you can see a picture of him at a farbrengen in the Yimei Bereishis book, before he left Lubavitch)

a chasid shoteh is one who doesn't save a drowning woman because he won't touch a woman

and if Jewish women are drowning spiritually? then what? if we don't think it's the same, it might be because we don't truly believe that drowning spiritually is that bad ...

re the prison story and hugs, in the book Holy Brother (which is amazing and highly recommended)

http://search.barnesandnoble.c.....itm=9

there are dozens of stories of S.C.'s incredible ahavas Yisrael

there are just too many of them, some in public venues, for me to think they are made up

if we had a FRACTION of his ahavas Yisrael, we'd be fortunate

one story told there is about his entering a room for a concert and seeing an obese, ugly person sitting by him (her?) self with empty seats all around since nobody wanted to sit near them, and how R' Shlomo went right over and hugged him

I don't know about you, but even in a room of women only, I have not ever approached an ugly, smelly or otherwise off-putting person and hugged them just to make them feel loved

and he died penniless because he gave all his money away to others in need

Last edited by Motek on Thu, Jan 27 2005, 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

hadasa

Thu, Jan 27 2005, 3:07 pm

Motek - Unless I'm mistaken, R' Shlomo's connection to Lubavitch began during the war, in France, where he and his twin brother, R' Elya Chaim, were amongst a group of Bochurim who were hiding in a cellar with R' Zalman Shneerson, a Lubavitcher Rov, a relative of the Rebbe's and a very impressive personality.

I heard from someone who was there, how once, the Germans came into that house looking for Jews. The Bochurim sat in the cellar, not daring to breath, hearing them stamping around and slamming doors. They were about to go into the cellar, when one of them said, "Oh, come on, let's go, there's nothing here", and they left (B"H!!!).

R' Elya Chaim Carlebach married R' Zalman's daughter, and although he himself eventually became close to a different Chassidus (Bobov, if I'm not mistaken), his children are Lubavitchers and Shluchim.