neshama carlebach | Imamother

roza

Sun, Jan 23 2005, 11:30 pm

I am afraid that this disscussion will go on for 10 pages and more as ppl bring more 'facts' and opinions about late r. Shlomo.
let the person rest in peace. this thread is about his daughter's music which is sweet. some of her songs are here:

http://www.neshamacarlebach.com/music.html

Tefila

Sun, Jan 23 2005, 11:38 pm

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let the person rest in peace

Agree there Exclamation

and

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this thread is about his daughter's music

Fine but do I support or go to someone's whose philosophy that 'seems' everything against I was taught!

I love listening to music. Music can make me go anywhere, do anything!
It heightens my emotions, spirituality etc.
That is why I try to be so careful of the person hashkafas since I feel it enters my depths. Whats wrong with that?

roza

Sun, Jan 23 2005, 11:58 pm

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you are right about being careful with music. but since I learned that many chassidishe singers take non-jewish music anyway and just put in hebrew words or pesukim, don't see the difference b/w her songs with hebrew words and their songs. and her songs are MUCH more gentle then some AF songs (it's different style of cause)

roza

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:13 am

what you are saying that there is non-tznius hashkafah. yes- in our chassidisher circles- it's not ok. I will not argue on this with you.

(otoh - it's not so simple- some non-chassidisher rabbonim give heter for such (most non frum ppl in mix aud. listen to kol isha anyway vechulu) - if it will bring ppl message from judaism. again no chabad rov will ever paskin so but they will send you to non chabad rav) - I heard all this from a baal teshuva singer who is frum and in sheitel- she got such heter

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:57 am

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some non-chassidisher rabbonim give heter for such

Kol Isha is Kol isha, and my non-chadisish, and actually VERY litvish husband wouldn't even listen to recording, which is sort of not really assur.

the litvish man I know do not listen to kol isha!!!!!!

But no orthodox man, even more so a Rav, would go for Live Kol Isha.

And that Baalas Teshuva w/ a cheitel - wh ois she and WHO gave her the heter - an orthodox Rav?
Is it first hand info?
Do you know who the Rav is?

Actually, I would not go to a Jewish concert w/ Kol Isha in from of men, b/c my presence there will show that I approve of it.

gryp

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 11:32 am

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Actually, I would not go to a Jewish concert w/ Kol Isha in from of men, b/c my presence there will show that I approve of it.

of course not. how can someone go try and enjoy a concert with a lady singing in front of men? not only would I leave if I was there, but I would never buy her music.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:03 pm

Unless you know all the issues involved, I wouldn't make any statements about this. For one thing, a man is allowed to listen to a woman singing if he doesn't see her clearly. So he can attend a concert if he is sitting far enough.

And going back to the rabbi from the gemara -- how do you explain the fact that he danced with the kalla?

Or what about Pinchas? Where does it say in the Torah that you could just go into someone's tent and kill him, even if he is committing a despeakable act? What about two witnesses and warning? What about beis din? But he _felt_ this had to be done. Sometimes feelings do carry weight.

Tefila

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:08 pm

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It was not a big hall so how far were men sitting plus she was very visible to everyone.
The Conservative Rabbi there told us this and wondered why I couldn't have come atleast she's religous what can be wrong then shock

gryp

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:15 pm

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And going back to the rabbi from the gemara -- how do you explain the fact that he danced with the kalla?
Or what about Pinchas? Where does it say in the Torah that you could just go into someone's tent and kill him, even if he is committing a despeakable act? What about two witnesses and warning? What about beis din? But he _felt_ this had to be done. Sometimes feelings do carry weight.

really I dont see any comparison between someone mentioned in the gemara and pinchas who meforshim say merited to become eliyahu hanavi (!).... and neshama carlebach... how you can even think of them as similar is beyond me.

there are many explanations on what Pinchas did, if you have questions about it. I havent learned them recently enough to tell you them, but they are there.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:26 pm

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Or what about Pinchas? Where does it say in the Torah that you could just go into someone's tent and kill him, even if he is committing a despeakable act? What about two witnesses and warning? What about beis din? But he _felt_ this had to be done. Sometimes feelings do carry weight.

"somebody" was commiting hilul H' in PUBLIC infront of the MISHKAN!!!!! where SHECHINA WAS DWELLING!!!!!!!
Much much different than a lady singing in from of a bunch of man who don't care anyways.

"I feel" is much different from "Rav Eliyashed feels"

If I will tell you to throw out your dishes b/c I feel they're not kosher, you will go and ask your Rav. If your Rav will telll you to throw out your dishes you will just do it.
Why? B/c I am I & I your Rav is your Rav. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Anny

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 12:32 pm

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For one thing, a man is allowed to listen to a woman singing if he doesn't see her clearly.

How many frum orthodox men do you know who rely on this "permission"?

Motek

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 1:33 pm

yehudis wrote:

not quite

Pinchas saw what was happening and he remembered the halacha, that if a Jew has relations with a gentile woman, zealous people kill them, and he asked his rav (Moshe Rabeinu) what to do. So Moshe told him, "the one who reads the letter is the one who carries it out," and so Pinchas went to kill them. This is in Rashi parshas Balak 25:7.

So the HALACHA in this case is that zealous ones kill them.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 3:28 pm

Motek wrote:

Pinchas saw what was happening and he remembered the halacha, that if a Jew has relations with a gentile woman, zealous people kill them, and he asked his rav (Moshe Rabeinu) what to do. So Moshe told him, "the one who reads the letter is the one who carries it out," and so Pinchas went to kill them. This is in Rashi parshas Balak 25:7.

Wait a second! I specifically remember learning that he did not ask Moshe about it. Don't remember the source. I'll see if I can find it.

yehudis

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 3:33 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

"somebody" was commiting hilul H' in PUBLIC infront of the MISHKAN!!!!! where SHECHINA WAS DWELLING!!!!!!!
Much much different than a lady singing in from of a bunch of man who don't care anyways.

What? When you see these men being so far away from the Torah and not caring, your heart doesn't break to the extent that you feel you need to do something about it?

And you think that your emotions are on a higher level than the Carlebachs'?

Quote:

"I feel" is much different from "Rav Eliyashed feels"

If I will tell you to throw out your dishes b/c I feel they're not kosher, you will go and ask your Rav. If your Rav will telll you to throw out your dishes you will just do it.
Why? B/c I am I & I your Rav is your Rav. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

My point exactly. Noone here on this board is a Rav. As I said before, unless you know all the halachos involved, how can you say anything? Anybody here an expert in kol isha? I'm not.

gryp

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 3:47 pm

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What? When you see these men being so far away from the Torah and not caring, your heart doesn't break to the extent that you feel you need to do something about it?

yehudis, from this it seems to me that you agree that the men should not be there listening to a lady sing. but then you say we shouldnt say shes doing anything wrong, because there are heterim and we arent experts.

I dont know what this is all about feelings and the carlebachs but never in my wildest imagination would I compare them, or anyone from todays day and age, to people in the tanach and gemara.

all I need to be is expert enough to get a strange feeling when I hear stories like this (ie, singing in front of men). even assuming she did get a heter from a Rav, doesnt mean I agree with what shes doing, and I have a right to refuse to buy her music or to not go to her concerts.

please dont read this as arrogant. there are many things people do with a heter from their Rav, and we still dont agree with it...

yehudis

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 3:54 pm

RG wrote:

please dont read this as arrogant. there are many things people do with a heter from their Rav, and we still dont agree with it...

You don't have to agree with it, but you can't condemn those people.