Rabbi Levin is 100% RIGHT about Maimonides Hospital!

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 8:06 pm

chavamom wrote:

That you chose to follow halacha makes you a frum Jew, but you equally have a choice to not do so. Understand what I'm saying? It bugs me when people say "we had no choice". Yes, you do. To say otherwise denies that you have free will.

As someone who is a Torah observant Jew, I chose in the past, choose in the present and hope to choose in the future, to live in that fashion, by consulting with a Rov on matters of great significance. No, chavamom, no one held a gun to my head. But in a community like Boro Park where many/most people who are on the same wavelength religiously, reside, we need a hospital with an administration that works with us, and not againt us, with feelings such as why are you torturing this ninety year old, just let her die (make her die) and endure less pain.

That is not OUR decision, that is G-d's decision. IF G-D WANTED HER DEAD, HE WOULDNT HAVE HAD TO COME DOWN TO DISCONNECT THE RESPIRATOR, HE COULD HAVE DONE THAT VERY EASILY FROM AFAR.

By the way, she was alert, communicating non-verbally, and aware of her suffering until the last week.

Chavamom, if you had been in my family's shoes Ch"v, what would you have done with your elderly relative (who was suffering terribly and yet not dieing for months, as long as she was connected to the respirator)?

iriska_meller

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 8:28 pm

Mevater wrote:

chavamom wrote:

That is exactly why I'm planning on writing a detailed living will and making a non-family member my health care proxy. Exploding anger

Or, as one nurse I know suggested, tatoo "DNR" across my chest, "no feeding tube" on my stomach and "no enemas" on my tush LOL

Stayci

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 8:38 pm

I'll add my 2 cents to this Maimonides rant. That hospital is a terrible place. Those with a pleasant experience let me tell you, it was purely by accident. It is safe to bash them as they are a million percent wrong. They have more cash then they can handle and they stink greed. The entire atmosphere is one of anger and nervousness. There is little place for growth and no motivation to do well. I had my baby there and deserve to be imprisoned for child neglect because of it. Way too many horror stories, and there is no excuse for it! Way to go Rabbi-never-heard-of-you-before. Continue to preach until either the hospital attempts to change or people boycott it.

Mama Bear

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 8:54 pm

I had 2 very unpleasant experiences in maimonides. Once was when I fell on the street, ripped my hand open and was bleeding.l I ran iinto the ER with a bleeding hand and looked around wildly for ANYOEN to give me a bandaid or gauze pad. no one. I had to wait in a long line with a bleeding hand. I finally asked the security guard for a gauze and bandaid and walked out.

My 2nd one was when I had to have a D&C done. the entire experience, from preop to postop was absolutely awful. I'd had 3 surgeries in NYU and this was such a shock to me.

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 8:54 pm

iriska_meller wrote:

Mevater wrote:

chavamom wrote:

That is exactly why I'm planning on writing a detailed living will and making a non-family member my health care proxy. Exploding anger

Or, as one nurse I know suggested, tatoo "DNR" across my chest, "no feeding tube" on my stomach and "no enemas" on my tush LOL

That's your choice. But my relative, a Holocaust survivor, no stranger to extreme pain and suffering, would have without the slightest question, have stipulated to do EXACTLY AS THE RABBIS SAY in matters of such significance.

chavamom

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 9:05 pm

Mevater wrote:

Chavamom, if you had been in my family's shoes Ch"v, what would you have done with your elderly relative (who was suffering terribly and yet not dieing for months, as long as she was connected to the respirator)?

It doesn't matter what I would have done. You are missing my only point which is the notion that you had no choice. I respect the choice you made, would defend your right to chose it and am only quibbling with the notion that there was no choice involved.

Irina makes a good point about a (halachic) living will. FTR there is often a halachic middle ground between "do everything to prolong life as long as possible" and killing someone to end their suffering.

manhattanmom

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 9:05 pm

marina wrote:

Is he that guy who constantly rants about gays? Just listening to him makes me want to go out and sin with people of my own gender and I'm not even gay.

So the question here is:
Does listening to this rant make you want to go to Maimonadies?

So for the third time on this post, pardon my ignorance, who is this guy?
Is he just some guy on a soapbox?

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:25 pm

manhattanmom wrote:

So for the third time on this post, pardon my ignorance, who is this guy?

He's a Rov of a Minyan in Midwood, who very much vocalizes his strong opinions pro right wing causes (anti-gay, honesty at all costs....). I believe he's a follower of R' Avigdor Miller's A"H ways. I think he does everything straight from the heart, never with any ulterior motives.

manhattanmom

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:31 pm

Mevater wrote:

manhattanmom wrote:

So for the third time on this post, pardon my ignorance, who is this guy?

Thank you.
But I don't understand how standing on a soapbox announcing how bad a hospital is comes "straight from the heart." You lost me there.

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:33 pm

[quote="chavamom"]

Mevater wrote:

FTR there is often a halachic middle ground between "do everything to prolong life as long as possible" and killing someone to end their suffering.

R' Feinstein, a Talmid Chacham and Gadol B' Yisroel, decides on a case by case basis what the "middle ground" is Halachically. He asks many many questions before he gives the Psak. Some people think that they're just as Torah-learned, wise and sensitive as great Rabbonim and can decide for themselves. IMHO whoever one's Rov is, whatever branch of Judaism they're from, should have the final word on matters with such life/death significance.

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:38 pm

manhattanmom wrote:

Mevater wrote:

manhattanmom wrote:

So for the third time on this post, pardon my ignorance, who is this guy?

Thank you.
But I don't understand how standing on a soapbox announcing how bad a hospital is comes "straight from the heart." You lost me there.

I'm not lost at all. He's possibly heard one too many stories about dieing relatives and mistakes made there with the hospital admin crying they're short on funds so they cant improve services, while they're investing many millions in real estate and other larger money-making ventures and admin is raking in manhattan-type salaries.......No I'm not lost at all.

chavamom

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:49 pm

Atali wrote:

I really don't think it is the place of other people to imply that Mevater and her family what they should be doing with their relative.

She asked a rav, and even if she hadn't it is still really not anyone else's business.

I am NOT implying what ANYONE should do. I am merely making the point that it is a CHOICE to follow a rav's psak - one that most of us make, but a CHOICE. I am not nitpicking what they did, have said so, and honestly probably would have done something similar. But why is it important to understand that this is a CHOICE? B/c that is the way the medicolegal system is set up. Hospitals run according to US laws not da'as torah.

chavamom

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 10:56 pm

Mevater wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Mevater wrote:

FTR there is often a halachic middle ground between "do everything to prolong life as long as possible" and killing someone to end their suffering.

I'm not sure why you continue to argue with me. All the points that you bring have no relevance to any argument I am making and I don't even disagree with you. My point is you are talking about choosing to follow a rav's psak. We live in the US and hospitals have to follow laws about who gets a say in end of life decisions and while the family can choose to consult with whomever they want. But that halacha is not the law of the land and that is how a hospital is going to behave - they see your rav as any other consultant and whoever the law says has a right to make end of life decisions gets to make that choice. Period.

{for the record, I only made the point about "middle ground" for informational purposes only - not as a criticism, but to make the point that there are other views on the matter. As someone who has worked in a hospital and seen numerous cases, I've seen gedolim rule in other ways that are not nearly so black and white as portrayed here}

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 11:16 pm

chavamom wrote:

Atali wrote:

I totally agree with your saying that religion and hospital rules often dont mesh, but in a community where there are hundreds of very religious elderly Holocaust victims passing through hospital corridors regularly, at least some modifications can be made, if the hospital would be sensitive/caring enough. Here's my opportunity to suggest that the hospital employ a "middle ground" approach.

If a news program such as 60 Minutes were to film the horrors that elderly Holocaust victims are put through for months at a time, by being shifted from one place to another, as was my relative, simply because this community doesn't believe in helping the "Malach Hamoves" along, it would not be flattering to them.

Mama Bear

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 11:18 pm

"Rabbi" Levin is SO virulently anti-gay agenda and anti-abortion agenda that he condemns every rav, newspaper, Jew who endorse or vote for any politician who are pro gay rights. which is basically anyone. He is a bit of a radical. manhattanmom, you can listen to his radio show every sunday night from 12 to 1 am on 620 am dial. He's a weirdo, ina fascinating way.

Mevater

Mon, Dec 14 2009, 11:25 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I guess you'd feel the same way about the Gadol Rav Avigdor Miller a"h who would feel/do/say same! He wasn't ever ready willing or able to kiss up to any politician and vote any which way, just for a program for financial gain, if he didnt agree with the politician's views. If it's right, it's right, and if it's wrong, it's wrong.

Rabbi Levin is just a more outspoken Rav Avigdor Miller a"h, with the exact opinions! I don't think they ever disagreed on anything.