Study of a closed society (Chassidim)- How accurate is this?

freidasima

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:54 am

Amother what I meant is while chassidim abroad learn for a year or maybe two after marriage and then as far as I know they go out to the workforce, here in EY because of the kollel system and the law that you have to go to the army if you aren't in kollel, they sit and learn for years and years (at least as far as the record is concerned ) just like the Litvish do. So you don't see young chassidic men going out to work in EY as it would mean that they have to go to the army. At age 35 or 40 it's a different think, then there is no problem, but a young man of 22 or 23? Almost never.

Cookiemilk, here is the problem. I know those sociology texts, I remember studying them in college and grad school. But the difference is that when they discuss styles of parenting IN TRIBES IN AFRICA, in polynesia, etc., it's one thing, maybe then you can detect admiration (I never did, to me it was all descriptive but that's why I am a psychologist, not a sociologist). But they were always critical of using what was seen as non-western methods by groups living firmly in the western world. Read studies of the Amish, of the Hutterites and of those groups in Canada whose names I never remember, they were also descendent of German immigrants I think. They aren't particularly admiring of them. Furthermore, Chassidim live in major urban centers. Sociologists are never really admiring of large groups living in the west in major urban centers who are living "to a different drummer".

That's the difference. If those african or polynesian tribes would pick up, move to the Bronx and be a "nation within a nation" and try to continue their practices, all the while "using the system" of the west (WIC, welfare, etc.) you can bet your bottom dollar that sociologists wouldn't admire them, just the opposite.

Therein lies the problem. You won't find any "admiration" for any group who is keeping to non western values or sometimes what is even seen as anti-western values, who is nevertheless living in a major urban setting, alongside "normal" westerners and at the same time, trying to take advantage of everything that the "system" has to offer - section 8, WIC, welfare you name it.

If chassidim would all be sitting on an island in polynesia, you can bet your bottom dollar that sociologists going there to study them would admire their childraising policies, their lack of crime and all the other wonderful things that we all know about.

It's all "location, location, location" as my uncle in law says about buying a house...

Fox

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 12:48 pm

freidasima wrote:

I think that this book was discussed here before, I remember one of the posters saying that she was mistakenly quoted as belonging to Bobov when she doesn't.

In any case, from what I read about the author she actually works on language and that's how she did her study, her anthropological conclusions are secondary. And in any case, as far as I know she was always secular and never a lapsed frum woman, there have been articles published about her elsewhere that I read.

That was me! Dr. Fader used an anonymous post of mine to illustrate the attitude of Bobov women toward secular academic knowledge. Since I'm neither Chassidish nor a Bobover, it was kind of humorous -- if a bit scary!

I read Mitzvah Girls, the book created from Dr. Fader's dissertation, and Freidasima is absolutely correct: 90 percent of it concerns linguistic patterns and the simultaneous use of Yiddish and English. Based on my observations, the linguistic conclusions are pretty accurate.

I find these studies to be fascinating, but you can't expect them to be accurate in drawing broad conclusions. Most dissertations are very, very focused, and any general comments are thrown in just for "flavor." You have to remember that a dissertation is just an overgrown school project; it can shed interesting light on people's lives, but it's not "emes."

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 12:53 pm

The way things are said and presentend sound wrong, if not false.

amother

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:20 pm

Mevater wrote:

How accurate is this?

Oh very accurate my friend.

Real good! Very Happy

freidasima

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:21 pm

Fox! So I wasn't hallucinating! It was you!
In any case as I really like language I should get hold of the book and read it. As it appeared to be yet another study of (ho hum yawn) yet another charedi community that someone wanted to criticise it really didn't interest me but if it is about language, that sounds like fun.

In any case, I wonder what a study, with or without quotation marks, written by a truly charedi woman about charedi society would be like...

ally

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:23 pm

freidasima wrote:

In any case, I wonder what a study, with or without quotation marks, written by a truly charedi woman about charedi society would be like...

Either censored or put into Cherem.

amother

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:23 pm

There aren't many chasidish academics, especially female ones Wink

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:25 pm

I'm not sure how an academics is defined, but if it means someone with an university degree, then I know plenty of them.

amother

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:26 pm

No, an academic is not just someone who went to college or earned an online degree.

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:30 pm

amother wrote:

No, an academic is not just someone who went to college or earned an online degree.

What then? English is not my first language by far.

freidasima

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:41 pm

Well maybe not charedi academics but there must be some from Lubavtich or maybe Litvish in America?

bubby

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 3:04 pm

Dr. Kate Lowenthal from London, a university professor, is definitely an academic and certainly Chareidi...and yes, she is Lubavitch. Doesn't that count? Wink

bubby

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 3:08 pm

I am confused about the reaction to self-help books. Haven't there been so many recommendations on imamother to such things? Not all are Jewish-based...I've seen references to "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", for example. To me, that's a self-help book. So are books on eating disorders. We learn from them.

louche

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 3:13 pm

bubby wrote:

So are all those Mesorah/Artscroll/Feldheim etc. books about Shlom Bayit, rearing jewish children, managing a kosher household, TM etc. etc. "Self-help" isn't just about "you can overcome depression in ten easy steps without surgery" or "how to have vavoom style no matter who your rebbe is."

sarahd

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 3:15 pm

bubby wrote:

Dr. Kate Lowenthal from London, a university professor, is definitely an academic and certainly Chareidi...and yes, she is Lubavitch. Doesn't that count? Wink

Is she planning to do a study of chareidi society?

freidasima

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 3:20 pm

And isn't there a Dr. Sarah Rigeur in New York, is she also charedi or something like that? In EY there is Malka Scheps who is a mathematician and writes charedi girls books under a pseudonym of Rachel Pomerantz.

Fox

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 4:22 pm

freidasima wrote:

I'd lend it to you (DH and DDs are leaving for EY in a week!), but it's on my Kindle!

I can tell you the basic thesis, though: Despite an official commitment to using Yiddish almost exclusively, Bobover women generally speak English with one another, and as girls get older, using more English is almost a sign of increasing maturity. However, various Yiddish expressions, sentence structures, and other linguistic characteristics are transferred from Yiddish to English. Individuals who do not incorporate these elements of Yiddish into their English are generally regarded as outsiders.

She does draw some general conclusions about how women pick and choose elements of "modernity" that they incorporate into their lives, and it's annoying that she thinks this is a chiddush (apparently she had previously confused us with the Amish!), but it's not really the point of the study.

While I can't comment on Dr. Fader's methodology, I will mention that at the last Bobov chassunah I attended in BP, I didn't hear a word of Yiddish among the women and girls -- unless they were talking to a small boy or their husbands.

intel

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 4:48 pm

She makes it sound that one of the main principals of yiddishkeit is to obey male authority. PLEASE!! she may be confusing us with an other religious group. the ones who also consider it their mission in life to blow up planes and tall buildings.

Maya

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 9:29 pm

Anyone remember Hella Winston's Unchosen? She was getting her information from people who had left the community and the lifestyle. They all had their reasons for leaving, but it didn't mean that everything they said was true for the entire community. How can anyone write a book about an thousands of people without interviewing at least hundreds of them? How can they base it on stories from a few disgruntled people?

Yakira

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:03 pm

Mevater wrote:

Whether the study is flawed or not, the following statement is more true than false, in many cases that I'm aware of:

When young Chasidim realise that “non jews” and secular culture are not as useless as they have been taught, they are vulnerable to a crisis of faith.

When the young kids get older and meet good people in secular society, they often feel like they've been lied to and secular society was maligned. (All/most non jews are on drugs... all/most non jews/secular Jews are unfaithful......all/most non jews/Secular Jews have no morals... all/most non jews/secular Jews live unsatisfying lives......all/most non jews/SJ have an ulterior motive when they're nice to you... and the list goes on... all things that our children are told by many of their role models- teachers, principals, parents)

Very good point that should probably get its own thread. This is very common in more RW / Chassidishe circles, and one that I experienced myself when I woke up one day and realized a lot of what I was told just wasn't true...