becoming pregnant while engaged

entropy

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:43 am

Would you want her to forfeit her virginity at 15?

grace413

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 7:22 am

I'd like to echo the poster who pointed out the unjustifiable mistreatment of single, widowed and divorced women. These women are, for the most part, at best invisible and at worst scorned. I experienced this as a single woman, my mother experienced it as a divorced woman and a friend experienced it as a widow.

My friend who was widowed at about age 50 told me that people who had been friends with her and her DH stopped inviting her over as soon as he was gone. I can't imagine how horrible it is to be deserted by those who you think are friends just when you are mourning the loss of your DH. And while my friend is a wonderful woman, her physical attributes were not what men lust after.

As for unmarried women being pathetic - I think what's pathetic is women so insecure that they let themselves be pressured into marrying somebody who is totally unsuited for them. My DH is well worth having waited for. And as for being picky, rejecting a variety of creeps does not a women picky. Furthermore, when I found DH I turned my whole life upside down and moved to a different country because he was worth the sacrifice.

I spent many a lonely Shabbat when I was single. I think many people don't understand how difficult it is to maintain a religious lifestyle despite the community's dirty looks. Again, not saying this is everybody but it is widespread.

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 8:08 am

mimivan wrote:

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

Some couples are "frum" enough, that if they have relations before marriage they practice taharas hamishpacha. So this child might be better off (or whatever word you're looking for) than one with married non-frum parents

With all due respect, wouldn't that be an oxymoron? How can a non-married couple practice taharas hamishpacha? And would a mikvah facility allow non-married women to use the mikvah whenever the women wish?

Well, technically, a single woman who isn't a niddah is allowed to sleep with a man. It has to be a sort of committed type of relationship and she becomes his "concubine." Its technically not quite an issue. Although, I don't know exactly how this works l'halacha.

There is a well known story of a boy that came to a Rov and asked permission for his girlfriend to go to the mikva.
The Rov said no
His reasoning was that if she goes to the mikva before they have relations then the act is thought out and planned. This is in a way worse then had they succumbed to temptation or in the case of a non frum couple were tinok sh'nishba

There is a story like this but much stronger...the Rav was the tzaddik Levi Yitchak of Bereditchev who was known for his ahavas Yisroel and for his commitment to dan l'kaf zechus even cases where a Jew obviously sinned (chas v'shalom)
a young scholar came to him once and said he erred by having his girlfriend go to the mikveh
apparently Rav Levi Bereditchev was red in the face with indignation...and threw him out...
the uncharacteristic behavior of the tzaddik shows the severity of the sin...he wasn't like someone who didn't know what he was doing..(he was a young scholar) and the sin involved premeditation...etc..

DITTO

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 8:16 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

I can tell you that there are a lot of sweet single guys who would make great husbands, but the girls don't want them

there are plenty of decent men out there to choose from with all types of religious backgrounds.

Yes I agree.

The guy lacks money, or looks not how they want, or is geeky, or works too much, or has an overbearing old mom, or volunteers too much/not enough time for her.

I have been trying to find a shidduch for a friend for years now. He's young, hard working, rabbinical student, but, he does kiruv and sends out shabbes texts etc to people and girls have no patience for that!
BH finally he found someone, but that's an example of a shunned top guy.

FS: a sin won't brin anything good. Yes, better die a virgin if that's Hashem's plan. Your friend with the insemination did the right thing. People who ostracize her will pay. Big time. But in the mean time WHY didn't she move to another community with her kid and present herself as a widow or a divorced??

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 8:22 am

Maybe singles are lonely because they choose not to live in their natural environment for singles in the Jewish tradition, their family (or a sem/yesh)?

I never spent a shabbes alone as a single. I was never shunned because I was single, it's a normal state to be before marriage. Did people try to set me up? Not really, but I never expected it and I was too frum for their circles anyway.

In the end of the day it's for the single (and for his parents, depending on the circles) to search.

grace413

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:02 am

Ruchel, there are a variety of reasons why people don't/can't live with their families once they are grown.
Many people have dysfunctional families, some don't have any family, some live in yehupitz where they will never find a shidduch if they don't leave town, etc. 30 year old women don't live in seminaries.

Was it not clear that we are discussing older singles? Of course you were not shunned, you were married at 21/22.

The fact that people search doesn't mean that they find.

saw50st8

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:14 am

Ruchel wrote:

FS: a sin won't brin anything good. Yes, better die a virgin if that's Hashem's plan. Your friend with the insemination did the right thing. People who ostracize her will pay. Big time. But in the mean time WHY didn't she move to another community with her kid and present herself as a widow or a divorced??

Why should she have to lie? Especially if she wasn't doing anything wrong?

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:16 am

grace413 wrote:

I know people in these cases who lived at an uncle or a cousin or even rented a room at a nice frum family. An orphan is an orphan, of course. BH nowadays with internet you don't have to go to the "big town" anymore to get married, although before internet it was newspaper ads and shadchanim and family meetings.

I know of sems for up to 30 yr old, and there are many older bucherim in yeshivos too.

I don't see people being treated as older single before they really are older. I have a friend in her 40's like this and her social life is wow compared to mine. My mil's social life as a widow was no different than before either.

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:16 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Why should she have to lie? Especially if she wasn't doing anything wrong?

Because people are... how they are.

mltjm

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:19 am

Barbara wrote:

mltjm wrote:

Oh G-d it seems like almost everyone on here has totally missed the point. I just read through 5 pages in total frustration.

I believe everyone on here is aware of the fact that in secular circles having secx before marriage is completely the norm. In that case, yes, BH the child has 2 Jewish parents, if they get married, even better, if they give it a bris, BH, if they give it kosher food once in a while, BH as well.

What we're talking about on here is FRUM couples having secx before marriage, and nuch, going to the mikvah beforehand to do it. Why are people on here who seem to think its ok??? Yes, it's hard from engagement to marriage. That's why your supposed to have a short engagement. But why on earth are there frum women on here who say it's ok for frum people to have secx before marriage??? shock

ETA: PS Ruchel finally we're agreeing on something!

I think that you need to go back and read the thread, because that's only one thing that's being discussed here. Another thing is laughing at people who would have a kosher wedding and a kosher bris with less than 9 months between.

oops my mistake Wink

mltjm

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:24 am

shosh wrote:

I would like to preface what I write here with the following statement:

I have never condoned and never will condone relations outside of marriage. It is something I have never done and am not likely to do at any point.

Now I'll make my point. As well as the community doesn't rate single women, it also doesn't rate divorcees. Many of us, especially if we have children, are treated as rubbish. If you are widowed, at least pple are semi-understanding because it was nobody's "fault". If you are divorced, you are trash, a reject, because you "failed" and because your presence can make other pple feel very insecure. The only suggestions that come up for divorcees are often really weird. Those of us who have kids have it really hard because in the chareidi world large families are desirable and wanted - but only if they are your own. If you are on your own with more than one or two kids, no one wants to know you and you become the local joke.

When I was still married, I remember a friend who had gotten divorced, who was from a frum background. When she told me that she'd had a few boyfriends and that she slept with them, I remember being horrified at the time. How could she, I wondered? Where was her self-respect, tznius, etc?

But a few years down the road, I am now on my own as well and even though I would never do it myself, I can now understand those women who do end up sleeping with the men they meet. It's lonely out there, and as divorcees we have little validity. Personally speaking, I decided that I am not interested in any physical anything until I remarry, if I ever did, because if I was to even bother taking the plunge again it would have to be someone really worthwhile who would treat me with respect. And if he can't treat me with enough respect to keep his hands off me, then I'm not interested.

But I also know that there are many others who are terribly lonely out there and don't have the same feeling that I do. They need love, feel rejected by society anyway, and are watching the last years of their youth fading away like the last flowers of spring. The nights are cold and it's miserable out there, so they figure what the hey? ....

I would therefore venture to say: No I don't condone relations outside marriage. But I no longer judge those who are in that position, whether they are older singles who never had a chance of a relationship, or divorcees, who know what it's like to have a relationship, which can actually make their state of socially enforced celibacy much harder.

Don't judge anyone in that position until you are there yourself, and then maybe you will start to understand.

Just my two cents ....

Great post! I would like to add in my own defense that, yes, I'm friends with a few girls who have gone off the derech and have secx or who still consider themselves frum and have secx. I would never ever shun anybody who did that, or anything else for that matter.

I'm not judging anyone. But at the same time, it's against halacha, pure and simple.

mltjm

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:28 am

freidasima wrote:

safetynet according to halocho if a woman single is living with a man, single, under a commitment of living together without ketubah, she is his pilegesh. Hence if she keeps TH with him there is no sin involved. It is socially "feh" but not halochically forbidden.

That's what I am talking about.

What if they are not living together full time, like many aren't? What if it's a one night stand? What then?

The same standards that make it halachically ok, in your circles, to go around with your hair uncovered are the ones that make it NOT OK to sleep with someone outside of marriage. Because it's not socially part of Jewish society anymore to have a pilegesh.

mltjm

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:36 am

freidasima wrote:

What I love about this thread is that almost everyone posting used a simple, basically halochic question as a soapbox to either defame, bash, speak loshon horo about, or share experiences that had absolutely nothing to do with the question asked.

That's what threads are all about, and except for a few pointed posts - including an amother who for some G-dforsaken reason tried to turn my words about "all Jewish babies are welcome after losing millions during the Holocaust" as if I were condoning premarital relations - no one personally tried to bash any other poster.

But what I don't understand here is the judgementalism of the non frum lifestyle or at least what appears to me as judgementalism by some of the posters. Either the Ribono Shel Olam appointed them his policewomen while I was sleeping or I missed something here. Everyone knows that in the western world the age of marriage has risen and since the ubiquitousness of the birth control pill since the 1960s fewer and fewer men and women - no longer fearing unwanted pregnancies - hesitate to engage in relations before their marriage which is at a later date. So? We aren't talking the average frum couple, we are talking the average couple, period, with orthodox Jews not being part of the equation.

That there are modern orthodox couples who aren't getting married, are living together? Even covertly? Yes it happens. Why? Ladies...ask the guys. In most cases that I have heard of like that, the girls would love to get married but the guys aren't so quick at asking. The girls figure that this is their last chance, maybe it will work out and the guy will eventually marry them. They aren't the ones who prefer living together over marriage, but no one is asking them to get married!

And so? If you don't like the situation, instead of condemning these girls for what they do, or condemning them to singlehood (or marrying frei guys who want to sleep with them before marriage anyhow), maybe do something about it. Closing the mikvah's against single women won't make these frum guys marry them. Having all the frum girls refuse to sleep with guys before marriage won't stop these guys from sleeping with non frum girls who they don't plan to marry. Because these guys aren't into getting married so fast. First they want a "single life". They don't want to commit. They don't want to settle down.

And who gets blamed for wanting to try and catch one of these guys nevertheless? The single religious girls, who otherwise have come to the conclusion that they are doomed to spinsterhood. Because there seem to be a heck of a lot more single older religious girls than there are single older religious guys.
Lots of reasons for that. The guys sometimes marry only traditional and not frum girls, or they take off the kippa and aren't religious anymore, but statistically lots of single girls at a certain age, many fewer religious single guys.

So...at least try not to be so judgemental and condemning of these poor girls. They just want - on the most part - to have a chance at getting married and they are desperate enough to be willing to go this route. It's not their first, or second or even third choice of lifestyle in most cases. But for those who do it, it's better than spending the rest of their life alone.

freidasima wrote:

First, as far as I know there is no "sin" in a poor person who is starving stealing food. "Lo tignov" of the ten commandments is kidnapping, not "stealing" as we know it.
It is not nice to take someone elses possessions, however if someone is starving and it's steal food or die? You steal food.
Now these girls.
They live in a world in which single girls are as good as dead. And people without children are as good as dead. Didn't chazal say that? A person without a child, a poor person and (don't remember third category, maybe blind or deaf?) are considered as good as dead?

And in practice. We the good frum Jewish communities treat single girls, older single spinsters, like dirt.
We don't turn ourselves inside out trying to be kind to them, trying to find them a shidduch etc. So they pick up the message. Better to be a non virgin than to be "dead" in your community.

Who exactly did the sin? I would say that we are all more guilty than they are.
Is it a "sin" to have a child out of wedlock? Not that I know of. And if you keep niddah? Then you are a concubine. If you are in a long term relationship in which you commit (even if the guy didnt) and are keeping TH you are a concubine and your child is not born in sin.

How are we to know who lives how? Who said that these girls committed a sin?
Be charitable towards them. And if it hurts you so much, don't post on Imamother about it, try to find them husbands. I do it all the time.

Being judgemental has nothing to do with halacha. I hope no one here is being particularly judgemental of people they know IRL who do do these things.

But the fact is, it's still against halacha and still completely unacceptable.

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:38 am

I know of names of rabbanim who will tell you (or would have told you) it's fine to uncover your hair. I have posted them countless times.

I am not aware of ONE rabbi who would say being a concubine is fine.

MommyZ

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:42 am

Ruchel wrote:

I know that the mikvah on the Upper West Side here in Manhattan allows unmarried women to go to the mikvah and that there is something called a "teffilin date" (not that I've ever done that) where the man brings his teffilin because he plans to sleep over with his date so apparently some Rabbi has said that it's better for them to go to mikvah then to sleep together without going.

DefyGravity

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 11:07 am

I don't think it's true that they "allow" it. And I think that the term "tefillin date" is something that's thrown around more as a joke than something that actually happens with ORTHODOX people. I'm sure people do sleep together, but I don't think it's so thought out that tefillin is purposely brought along and that mivkah comes (frequently) comes into play.

Do single women ever go to the mikvah? I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it's something that's nearly as common as people think. I assume it's extremely rare.

chavamom

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 12:14 pm

I don't think it's that rare in Israel. There are plenty of "mesorati", esp. Sephardim, that while they might go to a soccer game or wash their car on Shabbos, they make kiddush and have a seuda before they go. Those types of people have drummed into them that you DON"T SLEEP WITH A NIDDAH. Between those types and the "very left-wing" modern Orthodox, I don't think it's extremely rare to have people who are using the mikvah and not married (I knew of more than one case when I lived in Israel).

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 12:28 pm

I love those women here that justify misdeeds unethical behavior etc, and if someone dares challenge their opinion they get angry and say dont post on Imamother... Sorry sweet ladies out there; Imamother is a site to connect FRUM jewish women, so if you disagree with halacha you do NOt belong here!

saw50st8

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:20 pm

amother wrote:

Why post this behind amother? What are you afraid of?

And I am not sure anyone said "Oh this is a great thing." Just that it happens.

mominlkwd

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:24 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

I recently got remarried LOL

after a lousy first marriage and a pleasant divorce.

I can tell you that there are a lot of sweet single guys who would make great husbands, but the girls don't want them because their salaries are not high enough for their fantasy standards.

I really lucked out. I met a nice man. We live in a small apartment, but we are happy. The women who are complaining they can't find someone are just too picky and won't date someone who is not a doctor/lawyer/pharmacist/(Insert high paying profession here).

If a woman stoops so low as to have S*X outside of marriage, it is because she is choosing to be a pathetic loser rather than date a nice man with a not-so-great-salary. Believe me, there are plenty of decent men out there to choose from with all types of religious backgrounds.

I am truly upset by what you wrote, who gave you the right to judge other people? do you know what is in someone else's heart? I am ffb as is my sister, I am living a "typical" ffb life while my sister is MO. what she did before her marriage is her business. she knew I was not comfortable knowing about it and while I did let my opinion be known - without judgement - and while I did answer any halachic questions she had - as well as I could, I never presumed to understand or judge her way of life.

My sister is still my best friend and the person I turn to first whenever I have a crisis or a simcha. Just as I never judge her, she never judges me. This MO girl who you would probably call a pathetic loser ( although I am not sure how far she went) is - in my opinion - a better person than you. She would never judge someone else and would never hide behind a web site to scream her judgement at other people.

and to freidasima thank you for being the voice of reason here. we are not saying it is right just that unfortionately it does happen and better they do it the right way if they are going to do it at all