becoming pregnant while engaged

MrsDash

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:42 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

I recently got remarried LOL

after a lousy first marriage and a pleasant divorce.

I can tell you that there are a lot of sweet single guys who would make great husbands, but the girls don't want them because their salaries are not high enough for their fantasy standards.

I really lucked out. I met a nice man. We live in a small apartment, but we are happy. The women who are complaining they can't find someone are just too picky and won't date someone who is not a doctor/lawyer/pharmacist/(Insert high paying profession here).

If a woman stoops so low as to have S*X outside of marriage, it is because she is choosing to be a pathetic loser rather than date a nice man with a not-so-great-salary. Believe me, there are plenty of decent men out there to choose from with all types of religious backgrounds.

Wow! This is probably one of the most disturbing posts I have ever read.

You used words like "stoops so low" and "pathetic loser" to describe a woman you've never met before, and who also happens to be a Fellow Jew. Not to burst your "OPINIONATED" bubble, but there are plenty of people who would call You a "pathetic loser" for getting a divorce. I wouldn't jump so fast as to say those words about someone I don't know, and neither would any other Decent human being.

Please, have a little more sensitivity towards others. If the tables were turned, and you were the one on display, I don't think you would appreciate what others might say about you.

ora_43

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 12:46 pm

Just for the record, the original post and the initial responses had nothing to do with widows, divorcees, or older singles. People were talking about engaged couples.

I haven't heard of rabbis who allow the "pilegesh" situation today. I've only heard of that opinion from a Bar Ilan prof, but not an actual rabbi. Those posters who brought up the concubine option - who did you hear it from?

As for the halacha, what I learned is that a couple who are permitted to each other who have relations while unmarried, but after using the mikva, are violating the positive command "kedoshim tiyu."

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 12:59 pm

mominlkwd wrote:

I am ffb as is my sister, I am living a "typical" ffb life while my sister is MO. what she did before her marriage is her business. she knew I was not comfortable knowing about it and while I did let my opinion be known - without judgement - and while I did answer any halachic questions she had - as well as I could, I never presumed to understand or judge her way of life.

To me what you say here is more insulting than what she says.

How can you assume this is a MO "way of life"? If anything most dirty threads here are not by or about MO people.

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 1:01 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

And I am not sure anyone said "Oh this is a great thing." Just that it happens.

Everything happens. Eating pork too.

freidasima

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 1:07 pm

Ora from what I remember as a result of that article that Prof. Zohar (if that's who you meant) wrote about the Pilegesh, there were a whole bunch of rabbonim who wrote about the issue and yes, if you fit certain criteria you can be a pilegesh...meaning it is not and never was "ratzui" but it is halochically not forbidden (which is different than saying that it is halochically recommended).

That is certainly NOT a one night stand. But it is a couple living together with some type of committment without a ketubah and using a mikva and keeping TH. And of course that the union is not forbidden (woman single etc.)

As for saying that becoming pregnant while engaged is "good" - no one said it's "good". As for a religious couple living together before marriage? If they don't keep TH and have no committment it's a sin of course and totally forbidden halochically. But according to what I understand about the existence of the "pilegesh" status, if they have a commitment and she keeps TH, it is NOT halochically forbidden although socially and religiously (again, a social convention as 2000 years ago it was NOT looked down upon in the same sense) it is looked down upon and very much frowned on.

But a "frown" isn't an issur.
An issur is halocho.
A "frown" is social.

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 1:15 pm

Quote:

2000 years ago it was NOT looked down upon in the same sense

For some reason even 2000 years ago I can't imagine good people doing this. There is just no good reason, for good people.

Quote:

But a "frown" isn't an issur.
An issur is halocho.
A "frown" is social.

Halacha frowns upon many "not forbidden" things. Doesn't mean it's social.

entropy

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 1:40 pm

A pilegesh is not directly forbidden, but because there is a chiyuv of kidushin+ketuba it is technically impossible.

So, indirectly it is not allowed, but it is not less legitimate than a celibate delay of marriage.

freidasima

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 2:33 pm

Ruchel, it was done by so many.
Our own forefathers had concubines, Avraham, Yaakov. And for generations after matan Torah it existed also. It was perfectly acceptable, just as having more than one wife was perfectly acceptable. Just as taking a female captive in war and then making her into a concubine after a period of time was acceptable.

and done.
Just the fact that you say "ugh, it couldn't have been done by nice people 2000 years ago shows how you are being influenced by your social mores, the picture that your social morality TODAY conjures up about what you think like was like then among "nice people"...

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 2:44 pm

I'm not talking Bible. I'm talking much after.
(but anyway they had concubines for the mitsva, which is the contrary of today's so called concubines).

Rabbis never talked nicely about polygamy, saying even for the avos and imaos it was hard! shock

And in places where the ban was not (fully) accepted, it was frowned upon (at best) and rare in practice anyway. Except for some very minority cases where it was the woman's interest. Second wife instead of divorce in case of sterility, for example, in times and places where a divorced woman was in deep troubles. Marrying the childless brother's widow for the Temanim, where it was seen as more humane than abandoning her to a widow life, too.

It was about the woman, or about the mitsva, or both. Never about the man.

Except these rare cases, it is said no "mentsch" ever had more than one wife at the same time (I don't have the source). I will assume a concubine is the same type of thing, except I cannot ever see a good reason.

entropy

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:15 pm

In less priviledged eras, if you have the ability to take in and feed and build families for 2 women and you choose to take only one, you are not a mentch.

freidasima

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:17 pm

Well then if that is true, then according to what I learned R. Gershom Meor Hagolah who had two wives and as a result of the hatred between them ended up making the polygamy ban was not a mensch...

entropy

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:17 pm

That said, I agree with you that pilegesh and mentch are by definition mutually exclusive.

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:21 pm

Entropy: in the case you mention, it's for the woman's sake (so she doesn't starve alone).
FS: Do we know why he had two wives? What I find is that he married the widow Bonna of Mainz after his first wife died. Also he didn't have children with his first wife.

Isramom8

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:41 pm

If, according to FS, frum girls are living with frum guys in the desperate hope that they will marry them instead of sleeping with nonfrum girls, then what is lacking in our chinuch of frum guys davka? And how can we make sure the next generation does things differently?

Relatedly, I know I can't solve the Older Singe Girls crisis. But what can I do with my own kids to help things look different in 10 or 20 years?

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 3:44 pm

Let us emphasize self esteem in girls, yirat shamayim in boys and "being a good normal frum yid" in both.
There will always be rotten apples, and a girl with self respect should know to aim higher.

freidasima

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:15 pm

Isramom you hit the nail on the head.

There is a serious problem of numbers - so I am told. There are approximately the same numbers of religious boys and girls to begin with, but more boys than girls become secular, some as a result of the army, some soon after, while the girls on the larger part stay religious.

Then there is the other direction, the not so small numbers of boys who marry quite early, in hesder, marrying girls who are very young - 17, 18, 19.

So if you are religious, unmarried and 22, you are already facing several problems.
1) there are fewer religious unmarried boys of that age than girls
2) many of the boys at that age are quite immature compared to the girls, they are just finishing hesder while the girls, who did a year or two of sherut leumi, and have two years of post high school studies (be it university, seminary or professional training) under their belt already, or are out working for two years, are light years more mature than the guys their age.

hence many of these girls are looking for boys who are already 24-25, and more mature.

But by the time you get to that age group, there are even fewer boys of 25 than of 22, simply because many of those boys are married (to girls of 18, 19, 20 for whom a 23 year old boy is mature enough).

And the boys - so many of them want YOUNG girls who have fewer expectations. So you will find some of the older guys still single at 27-30 wanting to date girls of 20...and guess what? The girls of 20 are willing more than not to date these guys. While girls of 27-30 are NOT interested in dating boys of 20...so there is no reciprocity.

So what should we do - stop educating our girls? Teach our boys to go out with girls of their own age? But often they aren't mature enough for such girls and are socially inept for a 27 year old girl who has intellectual requirements.

If the idea is to just get two nice young people together with the right working parts, then intellect doesn't matter.
But to a society brought up with intellectual and social and emotional compatability being important, it's a problem.

Once upon a time it wasn't a problem because fewer boys got married so early, it was NOT common to marry in hesder 30 years ago, meaning at 21-22. So by the time the boys studied something they were 25 and got married then and the girls of 22-23 had a larger pool of boys. Today that seems to be a problem...

Also in many cases the older frum girls are just more religious than the older frum boys...and they don't want to marry "down". The girls keep negiah, many of the boys don't. The girls wear skirts and don't go mixed dancing or swimming, many of the boys at a certain age don't care...so should we tell the girls - compromise? Do it for a while and try to get the guy to be frummer? Many of them end up doing just that...is that what we should educate our girls to do, or should we keep educating them as we are going and then when they are 30 and single take them aside and say "mamaleh, so loosen up a bit or you will stay single forever"?

I'ts not saying "so go sleep with him"....but for many girls with a good education it's almost in the same category to tell them "so go swim with him and dance with him"...or to say chas vesholom "so go sleep with him".

Yeah well.
slippery slope? I don't know. Don't have answers and still have three single kids at home...
Tell them

Sherri

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:22 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I have been trying to find a shidduch for a friend for years now. He's young, hard working, rabbinical student, but, he does kiruv and sends out shabbes texts etc to people and girls have no patience for that!
BH finally he found someone, but that's an example of a shunned top guy.

What are Shabbos texts?

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:22 pm

I think your children would benefit from shidduchim with people from other countries if the choice is between teen marriage and such compromises. Have they tried frumster, sawyouatsinai, etc? I'm serious. Nowadays many people find their bashert on internet.

If c'v I was in such situation I would encourage my daughters to start dating at 18. Or date out of Israel. It's not a sin, while compromising (depending on what) may be and I think no bracha comes from that.

Although to be honest I know of circles in Israel where frum people get married (much) later. But they're olim, or children of olim, generally. French, Italian, South Americans, Belgian, Swiss, Greek, North Africans...

Ruchel

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:24 pm

Sherri wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

What are Shabbos texts?

Text you get before shabbes (generally Friday morning or afternoon) with a parasha and explanation and religious stuff to ponder. Sometimes halacha, hashkafa, midrash. Sometimes names for tehilim. The hour of shabbes.

Sherri

Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:42 pm

Got it, thanks.