becoming pregnant while engaged

saw50st8

Wed, Feb 03 2010, 9:58 pm

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

Some couples are "frum" enough, that if they have relations before marriage they practice taharas hamishpacha. So this child might be better off (or whatever word you're looking for) than one with married non-frum parents

With all due respect, wouldn't that be an oxymoron? How can a non-married couple practice taharas hamishpacha? And would a mikvah facility allow non-married women to use the mikvah whenever the women wish?

Well, technically, a single woman who isn't a niddah is allowed to sleep with a man. It has to be a sort of committed type of relationship and she becomes his "concubine." Its technically not quite an issue. Although, I don't know exactly how this works l'halacha.

amother

Wed, Feb 03 2010, 10:38 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

There is a well known story of a boy that came to a Rov and asked permission for his girlfriend to go to the mikva.
The Rov said no
His reasoning was that if she goes to the mikva before they have relations then the act is thought out and planned. This is in a way worse then had they succumbed to temptation or in the case of a non frum couple were tinok sh'nishba

shanie5

Wed, Feb 03 2010, 11:11 pm

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

in a large city,where there are many mikvaot, how does anyone know whether or not a girl is married?

tizunabi

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 3:28 am

shanie5 wrote:

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

in a large city,where there are many mikvaot, how does anyone know whether or not a girl is married?

they don't-- im sure that one could read about what needs to be done at the mikva and show up. they could even cover their hair for good measure if they want, but its not necessary.
no one ever even asks if you are married

freidasima

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 3:32 am

oy this thread is such LH....
its no one's business what anyone does before or after marriage.
In a world in which 1,500,000 Yiddisher kinder were murdered by the Nazis only two generations ago, every and any Jewish child is welcome.
Of course it would be "nicer" if the parents are married when the child is conceived and marrried when it is born, but it doesn't always happen that way.

In my mind, any Jewish child is welcome.
Mazeltov to the parents.
Period.

imaima

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 3:41 am

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

depends on the community.

imaima

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 3:44 am

freidasima wrote:

oh a word of wisdom, finally..

joy613

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 3:54 am

tizunabi wrote:

shanie5 wrote:

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

in a large city,where there are many mikvaot, how does anyone know whether or not a girl is married?

I know of a mikva lady who told this story: a single girl came to use the mikvah. This lady did not know what to do. Should she allow her or not? She called a rav, and he told her that she should just let the girl do it by herself, she should not help at all (don't check if she's clean, don't go with her to toivel, etc).

I guess the reasoning was that if she does help her, she's sort of allowing her to go do an aveirah later. But if she turns her away, she'll probably go do the aveira anyways. So at least now it wouldn't be so bad.

I think she knew she was single becuase of her uncovered hair.

katb

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 4:56 am

[quote="Hashem loves me
I think she knew she was single becuase of her uncovered hair.[/quote]

That's ridiculous - plenty of people who use the mikvah don't cover their hair!!

And just on the topic in general, I agree entirely with Freidasima. It must be hard enough to come out in public with the fact that you are having a baby before you are married, and a Jewish child is a Jewish child.

Inspired

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 5:01 am

OldYoung wrote:

amother wrote:

I have never been asked for my teudat nissuin or marriage license at any mikvah I have been to, EY or the states.

joy613

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 5:53 am

Quote:

That's ridiculous - plenty of people who use the mikvah don't cover their hair!!

You're right. But I think in that community it is not common. so maybe it caused her to ask. not so sure but either way the point is that the mikva lady knew the girl was single.

amother

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 6:04 am

freidasima wrote:

of course every jewish child is welcome. What does that got to do with being pregnant before marriage?
Yes its not anyone's business what other people do ever, but hate to break it to you, you don't need to be such a snoop to be aware of a woman's pregnancy. It's in everyone's faces. And so it makes it hard not to think about it and be aware that they did something wrong.

You make it sound as if relations before marriage are not so bad. ("but it doesn't always happen that way")
I dont get it. would you say that about any other aveirah. "Of course it would be nicer if he would've asked nicely for the money rather than pickpocket it from the lady's purse, but it doesn't always happen that way"

Zus

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 6:12 am

It's unfortunately much more common than you think that a (frum) couple conceives before marriage. In my line of work I see it all the time.
Some of those babies are bnei niddah, but not all. Some women actually toivel before relations, even before marriage.

To answer the OP (again): no it has not repercussions for the child unless the mother is halachically married to another man.

But it's a bad, bad thing.

MommyZ

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 7:12 am

I would like to add my two cents regarding how a couple can consider themselves frum when they have had pre-marital relations. Sometimes both boy and girl are ffb and are going through a rebellious stage where those aspects of halacha don't seem so important but then end up getting married and keep Shabbos, Kashrus and Taharas Hamishpacha etc. You wouldn't necessarily know about their history unless they shared it with you.

Ruchel

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 7:21 am

Sometimes I go to the mikve and I'm the only covered. I don't assume all the others including the older ladies are "concubines". Gross. If anything women cover much less at the mikve since there are only women.

I don't get a couple who is frum enough to keep nidda but not to get married. What is their problem? they don't have the "heat of the moment" excuse...

Having relations before marriage does NOT mean you are the "no bris" type, c'v! or even that you don't keep kosher... but certainly it is weird to keep th...

Oh and at least you have your priorities in order and you don't abort to hide your sin.

Shoko

Thu, Feb 04 2010, 7:46 am

In terms of the OP's question, I think it's been answered, but I just want to put in my two cents:

1. I completely agree with Freidasima
2. There is actually a growing trend now of frum women who have serious boyfriends and for one reason or another aren't married yet are engaging in relations and thus use the mikvah. A friend of mine told me casually that she was using the mikvah (even though she's not married) and could tell I was a little confused so she explained the reasoning and told me that there are actually a lot frum women who do the same.