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Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 5:20 pm

I am feeling seriously Trek deprived, so lets talk Trek.....

....How do you feel Star Treks general philosophies fit in with Judaism?

Prime Directive?
Exploration of the unknown, often without families?

any other topics you can think of?

DefyGravity

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 5:27 pm

Man, if you'd started this discussion 7 years ago I would have been all over this. Unfortunately, I stopped reading the books when I'd put lots of effort into one series and then couldn't find the books to finish it. . . and once I'd find the missing book, I'd forget what the series was about. I finally got frustrated and stopped reading. I read all the books from TOS, TNG, DS9, and many of the miniseries from before 2003.

If I could find some good stand-alone books I'd still read Trek, maybe I'll see if Peter David has come out with anything recently. In one book of his, he named all the evil aliens off of items on the seder plate!

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 5:28 pm

I must admit that, while I dont enjoy most of the books anymore, Imzadi is my all-time fav. Trek book

DefyGravity

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 5:35 pm

That's the first Trek book I read that got me into them. Peter David is still one of my all-time favorite Trek authors. He's also a big-time comic book writer.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 5:38 pm

Heres a question.

Could sentient life exist on other planets? If so, do they have Torah too, or are the devoid of the chance of ever knowing Torah?

KAlex

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:05 am

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Heres a question.

Could sentient life exist on other planets? If so, do they have Torah too, or are the devoid of the chance of ever knowing Torah?

We were just talking about this last night, actually. Would they be Noachides? If they aren't on their own planet, would they be if they came to ours?

If they weren't counted as Noachides (and maybe if they were?), would they be able to convert?

Taking it back a step (the discussion was introduced by a DVD of an early episode of Babylon 5 - not Star Trek at all, obviously - we'd been given, where the Rabbi of one of the major characters comes to visit. We'd been given to understand that he's supposed to be orthodox, but decided on seeing his behaviour that he's Reform, but likes dressing in dark suits and black kippot, particularly after he goes to a generic restaurant, and eats a 'fish' he has to ask the identity of, which is from some other planet and already cooked on his plate), would anything from other planets be kosher to eat?

We thought things that were identifiably fruits/vegetables probably would be (although who knows about lechatchila/bedieved, and there'd have to be some strong education on how to check them for anything bug-like), but that animals of any kind probably wouldn't be. We'd certainly have no mesora for any of them, so would 'signs' (say some really were cloven-hoofed and chewed the cud) be applicable?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 4:56 am

interesting concept. May I take it further?

What about replicated food? Is it kosher? Do you need one replicator only for kosher food? In that case does one need to be meat and one milk?

If a non-kosher item is scanned for replication, is the replicated one treif as well, even though its own beginning is literally a bunch of atoms? If that is kosher, what about replicated pork? The replicated pork was never alive, so can it actually be called treif?

KAlex

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 6:18 am

Thanks - just been having a great discussion about the possibilities of this with my DH! Basically he thinks anything you replicate would take its status from what it was originally replicated from. (BTW, he's a scientist - who in reality doesn't believe any of this will be practical even within the next 500 years - but certainly not a Rav. This is basically guesswork.) He thinks this would go to brachot (how about making 'borei pri ha-etz' on a peach that's never been within light-years of a tree?!), and even kashrut status of meat and dairy (so we'd all be pushing for the first replicated glass of milk to have been chalav Yisrael, and the beef/lamb from properly shechted meat). Something about it all feels wrong to me, but it'll be down to the Rabbonim, and we are agreed that there'd probably be more than one opinion on all this!

Going by what we understand about Star Trek replicators, the plates are usually replicated with the meal, and then returned to the machine to be reabsorbed, so they're basically disposable, and therefore shouldn't need toiveling/kashering. Given that, then we think food replicated together would probably have the same meat/milk status (and be the bishul of whoever commanded the replicating, as with microwaves nowadays), but not things replicated separately. Still, practically it'd probably be at least advised to have separate ones for meat and milk, largely because of the surface things get replicated onto. Someone WILL spill their hot milk when taking it out, and someone else WILL spill their meatball-laden soup. Steam might also be an issue with hot foods.

(Kind of taking this one on the very practical principle expressed in my Hilkot Kashrut classes in sem: the Rav said he'd never understood why someone would need separate ketchup bottles for meat and milk, until he had small children. They don't drip ketchup on their burger; they smush the top of the bottle down onto the burger, and smear it around. So basically he told us that as adults we didn't need separate ones, but if we had young children, then we probably would!)

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 12:10 pm

wow. you put more thought into this than I ever did, and you made some very good points. (I will share it with DH as soon as he comes back from helping an elderly neighbor off the ground)

But what is a replicator costs thousands of dollars and you cannot afford 2 of them. In which case, Id say it isnt a problem as longs as you cover the bottom with a 'place mat' that you switch between meat and dairy

Zus

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 1:22 pm

I've never read any of the books Smile

As for the replicator, I think technically all replicator foods would be kosher, but for a 'marit ayin' purpose you can only replicate kosher food. So that we shouldn't get used to eating 'treif', because we can't really tell the difference between real food and replicated food (even though Neelix and Joseph Sisko will say it's nothing like the real thing).

So you wouldn't need 2 replicators for milchik and fleischik, as long as you won't put them in the same dish.
And if you order meat, make sure to specify 'kosher'.

And all foods are shehakol.

Replicated hand shmure matzes aren't good enough to be yotzeh during the seder, but they aren't chametz and can be eaten for the rest of the holiday. In fact, you're going to need real baked bread for all the seudot because otherwise it's not motzie Smile

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 5:08 pm

Zus wrote:

Re: marit ayin. Would it come to a point where, since the vast majority of food is replicated, that marit ayin no longer becomes an issue?

Zus wrote:

And all foods are shehakol.

That makes sense

Zus wrote:

Replicated hand shmure matzes aren't good enough to be yotzeh during the seder, but they aren't chametz and can be eaten for the rest of the holiday. In fact, you're going to need real baked bread for all the seudot because otherwise it's not motzie Smile

good point!!!

Zus

Mon, Apr 12 2010, 11:23 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Re: marit ayin. Would it come to a point where, since the vast majority of food is replicated, that marit ayin no longer becomes an issue?

Technically yes, but by then there won't be any chacham that is great enough to make the change, so we'll be stuck with it until the days of mashiach, just like the people outside EY are stuck with 2 days YT Smile

Ima2NYM_LTR

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 4:22 am

well for all we know, these devices are so complicated, they may not occur until the days of moshiach to begin with!!!!

Next question. Could a vulcan, or a klingon or any other race convert to Judaism?

Zus

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 5:56 am

Yeah why not?

Rodent

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 6:01 am

Hi, I'm Rodent and I'm a recovering Trekker.

I confess to once travelling 5 hours on an overnight train in full Star Fleet uniform (including a communicator that bleeped every time I leaned over to get some sleep) in order to attend a convention.

*Deep breath* It's good to get that off my chest...

Ima2NYM_LTR

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 7:23 am

Rodent, you are my hero!!!

Zus

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 11:01 am

So, what about shabat?
How do they even get through doors?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 11:20 am

ooh good question. I really dont have an answer

tovasmom

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 5:11 pm

My dh is a serious Trekker, and proud of it. We have discussions like this all the time in our house, and its really funny to hear our kids, who are post Trek (we got rid of our TV years ago) get involved. My 11 year old ds asked if he could get tapes (like Rosetta Stone) to learn Klingonese today. I'm thinking about it....

On a light note, I've been wondering, recently, whether those people who wear those blinking Bluetooth earpieces have already been assimilated? RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! 8)

Ima2NYM_LTR

Tue, Apr 13 2010, 5:14 pm

the Borg is, in many ways America. Technology, taking uniqueness and stamping it out...and since the Federation has always been 'America" throughout trek, is that saying we are our own worst enemy???

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